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scumbagio
New Member
Canada
12 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2002 : 18:36:32
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It's funny, I am fairly new to this board, but the first thing I noticed about the site was the fact that most of the posts are under the religion category. Why is that? I can say from my experience anyway, that the reason I joined The Skeptic Friends Network was because of a religion "issue" I had. I chose not to believe in fairy tales and the like. After having many discusions (some quite heated) with an ex-girlfiend who was a devout Baptist about the existince of god, I found it even more impossible to believe in such a being. I tried every way I could think of to try and get her to open her mind. She beleives the earth is only 6-7000 yrs old. hmm? I know people older than that. LOL
The only thing that I could gather from her was the "what if factor". Well what if there is a heaven? What if there was a god? And, what if I went to hell for wearing pants.?.It's also known as the fear factor.
I'm no psychologist, but my theory on this subject is simple to understand but hard to imagine. I think that people have the inability to imagine and end. Even though I truly believe that I'm worm food when I die, you have to admit, it's hard to comprehend. The human brain at some point needed to invent some sort of afterlife.
Any other theories? Also, does anyone know about any tests or polls done on religion and intelligence. Seems to me I heard about one that showed that most VERY religious people tended to be less intellegent. I think I remember the church not being very happy about the results, and tring to cover them up. (or something like that)
"The truth is seen through keyholes"
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2002 : 20:20:25 [Permalink]
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I think religion can be summed in one word: comfort. People want to believe in God and the afterlife because it comforts them to "know" they are being looked after and will not truly die. It's a mental crutch to lean on in times of worry and stress.
If you haven't done so, read Michael Shermer's book "How We Believe." It's a good analysis of religion and looks at why certain people tend to be more religious than others. There are a few other books out there, which I haven't read yet, that apparently suggest our brains were wired to seek explanations for why things are in the world and when we had no way of systematically explaining them (until the advent of science) we attributed them to magic which eventually became religion.
"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a
deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2002 : 20:58:01 [Permalink]
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I just wanted to point out, scumbagio, that this is a most excellent [Freudian?] slip:
quote:
After having many discusions (some quite heated) with an ex-girlfiend
Bravo.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 00:24:36 [Permalink]
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As a biological entity, my sole function in life is: continue to live. As a thinking entity, I know I will someday die. As Physiofly pointed out, the only way many people find comfort is by believing in an afterlife.
-me. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 07:50:08 [Permalink]
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I think the preponderence of 'religon' posts are caused simply by the preponderence of ridiculous-to-outrageous claims made by religons and the fundimentalist religous. For example, I've just stumbled across a brand, new Hovind assininity. I'm not going to post it because, frankly, the fool is boring me to the point of swallowing my snuff.
What it is, there's so MANY of them!
f
"He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice."
- Albert Einstein
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Wiley
Skeptic Friend
68 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 08:45:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Also, does anyone know about any tests or polls done on religion and intelligence. Seems to me I heard about one that showed that most VERY religious people tended to be less intellegent. I think I remember the church not being very happy about the results, and tring to cover them up. (or something like that)
I have never seen a poll/survey like that although I would believe it. Intelligent people tend to ask the question "why?", and very few, if any, religions can stand up to that question.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 09:08:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have never seen a poll/survey like that although I would believe it. Intelligent people tend to ask the question "why?", and very few, if any, religions can stand up to that question.
Most professional extensive polls tendo to break up their demographics by adding questions about gender, level of education and other stuff.
Polls about religion show most of the time that the percentage of atheists and agnosts increase with higher education. No big mystery here. Especially fundamentalism depends on a lack of education.
I have however never seen a serous study about the connection between Religion and Inteligence and would be very interested in that (both the how they did it and what results they reached).
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 11:38:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Polls about religion show most of the time that the percentage of atheists and agnosts increase with higher education. No big mystery here. Especially fundamentalism depends on a lack of education.
Sort of related--- the American Assoc. for the Advancement of Science found that their membership was so overwhelmingly Atheist that in the mid 90's they started an out reach program to the religious community http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/
But on the other hand you find a tremendous lack of critical and skeptical thinking amongst the members of Mensa.
It would seem that you not only need a high intelligence but a specific kind of intelligence.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 12:34:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
But on the other hand you find a tremendous lack of critical and skeptical thinking amongst the members of Mensa.
It would seem that you not only need a high intelligence but a specific kind of intelligence.
It could also be that they've never been taught how to think critically. Isn't there some problem with teaching a person all the answers rather than how to find the answers? Seems most would rather have the answer handed to them rather than figure the answer for themselves.
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 13:06:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
...they've never been taught how to think critically
When I first came to this country I had a "Language Arts" teacher named Mr. Levenstein who looked like a thin Drew Cary. One day in class he announced that he had had a brain storm over the weekend. It seems that his pre-schooler at home had been asking why, why, why as is the habit of children that age. He almost blew the kid off for being so annoying when it occured to he that the child was doing exactly what we all should be doing.
The next day he announced to the class that he wasn't going to teach us what to think, he was going to teach us how to think.
At that moment the whole course of my life changed.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 13:15:53 [Permalink]
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Minor off-topic rant about intelligence etc.
Knowledge and Itelligence are two almost completly different things. Only dumb people mix them up. 
But seriously, just because someone is uneducated does not mean that he has a low IQ and being educated does not make you smart.
People with a high intelligence will have it easier acquiering new knowledged. From a certain point on being intelligent means being able to figure out your own system of analyzing information, this does not have to be the classic critical thinking or a skeptical mindset; it just has to work for you.
Education idealy should not teach you a bunch of useless facts, but rather equip you with the basics and give you the abilty to figure things out on your own. Most systems of educations in use today are only partially sucesfull in that.
From the three concepts: knowledge of facts, methodes to solve new problems and the intelligence to use them, the methodes are the most important in life. (At least in my opinon, but that could just be because I have a bad memory and am only moderatly intelligent myself.)
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InChrist
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 01:34:19 [Permalink]
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Greetings all.
Much of what has been said is true. So many Christians simply accept what others believe rather than truly knowing what they believe. If that is a sign of intellegence, then I must say that people can be very foolish.
Well, I can't vouch for them, but I can vouch for myself. I'm a Christian (see my post in Christian Salvation for a full, detailed account of this). "Well then count this guy out. He's about as intellegent as a brick." Not so fast. There is a difference between intellegence and knowledge, as some of you have said. And I also believe that intellegence can be measured in many ways. I would put it exactly the way it was put by Lars_H, intellegence is a measure of your ability to learn.
"What's my point?" you ask. I simply want to make evident that not all Christians are religious, not all Christians are lacking in common sense or smarts. And not all Christians are Christians. So be skeptical and examine the evidence, interpreting for yourself and not relying on someone else.
Now religion as a comfort, or a "crutch." I agree with that. Religion is a comfort. That's why I'm not religious. Religion is about tradition. Christianity, true Christianity, is not about that. Christ never would have claimed a denomination or said "Go to church every Sunday so that you are saved." So what about me? What's Christianity for then? Why Christianity? Because in my experience I have never found something so true and so unexplainable. I'm not talking about the Bible or the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those don't answer the question with a satisfactory explanation. Going back to the intellegence idea, experience overrules everything including intellegence. Whoa! That doesn't mean you should shut off your brain. It only means that if you stated that you were certain to 99.9% accuracy that Christianity was false, as I'm sure many of you do believe so, that my experience with Christianity would tell me to take the .01%. Is this any different from a belief in evolution? Evolution assumes the chance of nearly unimaginable odds in order to explain life on this planet. Would you accept those odds if you had not experienced life itself and known that the world had to have a point of origin? Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the theory of evolution itself. I am undecided as to what I believe regarding evolution and don't wish to debate it here. I am using it only as an illustration.
So what's my experience? What could possibly be so unexplainable that I would take odds of billions to one against it? The answer is my life. You can't know me through the internet, so you have no way to verify that what I say is what I live. But neither can I know you. So in my words see my difference because they are a reflection of my life. Why should I be any different from you? After all, I am a human being. I have experienced many of the same things you have. What reason do I have to stand here and claim that I am a Christian. Especially in the face of the Christian story! Someone claiming to be God, dying on some cross thousands of years ago for my sins, in order that when I die I go to be with him, and on and on.... Well that sounds like a farce to me if I've ever heard one! It's ridiculous!
So then with what I have said in mind, think about this issue. I'd like to know why you think I believe this or for what reason I might have proclaiming it on this message board. I look forward to your responses. And know that all of what I have written is from my mind, but I do not claim it to be from of my own.
Grace and Peace
Josh
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 11:55:25 [Permalink]
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So many Christians simply accept what others believe rather than truly knowing what they believe.
I would say that a sign of intelligence is not knowing "what" you believe, but knowing "why" you believe it.
I would put it exactly the way it was put by Lars_H, intellegence is a measure of your ability to learn.
I would agree, but I would also add to that the ability to discern.
Religion is about tradition. Christianity, true Christianity, is not about that. You've redefined the word "religion" in order to say that christianity isn't it. That's not kosher.
It's as if I said 'candy is all about chocolate. Jelly beans, true Jelly beans are not about that.'
Christianity as much a religion as all the rest of them are.
Because in my experience I have never found something so true and so unexplainable.
You can pick one or the other but not both. If you cannot explain it then you have no means of knowing that it is true. If you don't know it to be true (have proof) then to say it is true is to lie.
Going back to the intellegence idea, experience overrules everything including intellegence. Whoa! That doesn't mean you should shut off your brain. It only means that if you stated that you were certain to 99.9% accuracy that Christianity was false, as I'm sure many of you do believe so, that my experience with Christianity would tell me to take the .01%.
So the answer is -- YES, you do have to shut off your brain. Thanks for settling that.
Is this any different from a belief in evolution?
No one "BELIEVES" in evolution. It is a fact not a philosophy. It doesn't require belief any more than gravity does.
Evolution assumes the chance of nearly unimaginable odds in order to explain life on this planet.
Now you're just getting silly.
Go to Oklahoma, pick a cornfield at random, pick an ear of corn at random, and pick a kernel on that ear of corn at random.
What are the unimaginable odds that you picked that one kernel? There aren't any. The odds are one to one. Because it is something that happened in the past. There are no odds against things that happened in the past only against things that will in the future.
Try to place a bet on yesterday's horse race and no one will take it. There are no odds, only the horse that won won. All the other horses that could have won didn't.
The reason evolution turned out just the way it did is because it DIDN'T turn out differently. It could have, but it didn't.
I'd like to know why you think I believe this or for what reason I might have proclaiming it on this message board.
I think you believe it because you've heard it every day from the day that you were born and are so indoctrinated that you are blind to it's obvious fictitiousness.
If you had been born in New Guinea you would be just as fervent about being a member of a Cargo Cult and worship 747's that flew over.
I think you sought out a Skeptic board to post on because people arguing against your credulity will enable you to associate yourself with the Xian martyrs you have mentioned several times already and thereby inflate your ego at our expense.
Hey, you asked.
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It will sometimes be necessary to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of treatment.
----Eusebius of Nicomedia,
The Preparation of the Gospel |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 12:49:08 [Permalink]
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Hi Flame Bait - erm, InChrist.
quote:
Religion is about tradition. Christianity, true Christianity, is not about that.
By 'true Christianity', are you referring to Theodore Sturgeon's concept of 'pure, or origional Christianity'.
quote:
So then with what I have said in mind, think about this issue. I'd like to know why you think I believe this or for what reason I might have proclaiming it on this message board. I look forward to your responses. And know that all of what I have written is from my mind, but I do not claim it to be from of my own.
You are either trying to prostelatize - you call it 'Witnessing'? - to us, or you are getting off on a moral trip.
In any case, welcome to SFN. Guys, be nice to the flamebait *ahem* newbie. He'll probably last as long as the last creationist..
*Grins impishly*
For it is a fact that Skeptics last longer.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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SueW0
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 13:08:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
So what's my experience? What could possibly be so unexplainable that I would take odds of billions to one against it? The answer is my life.
If you learn some biology, life a lot more explainable.
quote:
.... Well that sounds like a farce to me if I've ever heard one! It's ridiculous!
That's why I don't believe it.
quote:
I'd like to know why you think I believe this or for what reason I might have proclaiming it on this message board.
Because deep down inside, you know it's not true. (evil grin)
Sue
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InChrist
New Member
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2002 : 15:49:51 [Permalink]
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Hey all!
Flame Bait! LOL! I've never heard that one before! I think that's even funnier than the creationist theme park.
Anyway, I hope to last longer than the last creationist here too (because I take it they didn't stick around very long). I have really enjoyed reading what you have said about my posts so far. Especially the things you have said Slater.
"If you learn some biology, life a lot more explainable."
Sue is right about me and Biology, I don't really know any. That's why I'm studying to be a mechanical engineer. I like physics a whole lot more.
".... Well that sounds like a farce to me if I've ever heard one! It's ridiculous!
That's why I don't believe it."
Yea, I think that's why people don't (and should not unless they have a pretty good reason) believe Christianity. The story's pretty far fetched.
Sue thinks that deep down, I know Christianity is not true. That means I am liar in everything that I do because I live my life according to something I really know is false. Interesting hypothesis, but I don't think that it can be true.
What do I mean when I say "true" Christianity? Well the definition of a Christian is "one who professes a belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." By that definition, which is straght out of Websters, if you take anything in a religion, or life for that matter, and compare it to the teachings of Christ (or if you don't believe that Christ taught them, whoever did) you can then judge whether or not it's a Christian concept. Yes, I know I'm going to get responses to this, but I'd rather have this discussion under the Christian Salvation topic, just to keep our ideas separate. So I will be sure to mention it in my next post on that topic so you can respond there.
I'm not familiar with Sturgeon's concept of true Christianity or original Christianity. I tried to find it, but only came up with stuff about his stories, nothing about Christianity. Does anyone recommend any books by him that I should read?
So Xev thinks that I am either trying to proselityze you all or am going off on a moral power trip. First, I already stated that I respect everyone's beliefs of unbeliefs. You have the right to have them. I, personally, do not gain anything if you become a Christian. And am I on some moral trip? Have I once taken a "holier than thou" attitude? Let me tell you that I am probably the worst example of Christian principles you could find. I was introduced to pornography at a very young age and was addicted to it for almost a decade. I would be ashamed if the whole world could see some of the thoughts I had. I cannot deny that I am human, I find pleasure in things that are supposed to be against my beliefs. I'm not trying to be perfect. I know I can't be. But it is my imperfections which affirm that what the Bible says is true. So if I ever go off on a moral trip or something, I leave it up to you to point that out (Believe me, I know you will). And one last thing, I believe that you (no matter what you believe) can be more moral than someone who is a Christian.
Now I'd like to respond to Slater's comments. I think you are correct when you say "knowing why you believe it." I meant that you need to know what you believe before you can even know why. Many Christians don't know what they believe, let alone why. If you try to bring up a point worthy of contention, they don't know how to respond. This is not to say that someone should know everything. I don't and never will. Just that I am not idly sitting there while someone feeds me what I believe.
As I said, there are many forms of intellegence. I agree, discernment is definetely one of them. However, this doesn't mean that because you believe in a story that's very highly improbable you don't have the ability to discern.
Yes, Christianity can be a religion. It just depends on how you define religion. There are multiple definitions or contexts, so I should say which one. If you were to define religion as believing in a higher being or deity, yes, Christianity is a religion. There are other ways to define religion in which you would include Christianity. When talking of Christianity in a class called History of Western Civilization, my history book for stated that "This new religion [Christianity] hardly looked religious. Christians had no temples or other holy places, no priests, no ordinary sacrifices, no oracles, no visible gods, no intiations; they made no pilgrimages, did not practice divination, would not venereate the emperor, and challenged the final authority of the father in family life" (The Western Experience, 151). It is in this way that I believe Christianity to not be religious.
But there are other differeces that set Christianity apart from the rest. First, Christianity does not require you to do any works, meaning there aren't any actions you can take to be a Christian. This doesn't mean everyone is a Christian. It just means that you won't be a Christian just because you recite a prayer or go to church. Second, Christianity teaches grace. There are no "supernatural constraints" or "sanctions" on a Christian, they are free to do whatever they want. You might say that "But you said everyone can be a Christian, that they are free to do anything they want. So there is no way to evaluate someone's Christianity from their actions." This is true. You can't judge a Christian because there is no grounds by which to do so. But that doesn't mean you can't get a pretty good idea on whether or not they are living as a Christian. And it does mean that you can judge a denomination or a church by examining it's doctrine.
Just because something is true doesn't mean it must be explainable. For example, you know you have conscience thought for you are reading this now. But who has yet to understand what thoughts really are or why we have them? Just a point of philosophy.
I don't see by what reasoning you say that I shut my brain off. Please explain in more detail.
Wait a second, evolution is not a fact. No one has ever proven evolution to be true for it is impossible to prove. Unless you could go back in time to the beginning of evolution and watch it happen, then you could prove it. Evolution is the best theory we have for explaining the existence of life on this planet. But it is just that, a theory. Evolution could someday be proven to be false just like Christianity might be proven to be false as well. Therefore you do believe in evolution because you must use some degree of fatih in taking it to be true. It might be a very small degree, but it is still there. I merely wished to point out that small degree of faith.
I don't believe I am being silly either. The chances of evolution have been calculated by evolutionists to be small. I am NOT saying that evolutiion did not happen or is not happening now. Because we see life on this planet and because the best way to scientifically explain it is evolution, you must accept the odds that come along with it.
Slater believes that because I have been essentially brainwashed since the day I was born I believe in Christianity. So far this is the best explanation I have seen. If you think that I have been brainwashed, I can't refute it. I can only look at my capacity for rational thought and say that it's not likely. What about turning that around? How do you know that you haven't been brainwashed with atheism? Not saying that you have, just that it's a possibility if you accuse me of the same.
And I didn't seek out this board. I found it because I was looking for people's responses to creationism. This board came up pretty high. I was intrigued by what everyone had to say and wanted to join the discussion. By challenging me, you have made me question my own beliefs. I |
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