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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2002 : 06:24:50
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I know it is not fair to use the current media-hyped crisis in the catholic church as in an argument. Don't beat them when they are down and just because some of them are childmolesters does not mean that the whole concept of organised religion is somehow flawed.
But, still... Some of the comments I have heared by catholic officials about the issue seem to show that they are a bit unclear on the whole concept of sex, celibacy and sexual orientation in general.
From a CNN article :
quote:
Chicago archbishop, Cardinal Francis George, however, presented the issue of homosexuality in the priesthood in a different light.
"The important thing in seminary formation is to ask whether or not a candidate is capable of marriage and family," he said, "because an ordained priest is a married man. He's a committed man, the bride of Christ. The difficulty in formation ... is whether a man can see himself as married and bringing forth new life, which is what a priest is supposed to be."
Edited by - Lars_h on 04/23/2002 06:26:57
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 06:40:37 [Permalink]
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As convoluted as that idea is, I suppose it's better than saying "Nuns are the brides of Christ and priests are the consorts of the Blessed Virgin". What a can of worms THAT would open.
(:raig |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 06:52:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
---------------------------------------------
Chicago archbishop, Cardinal Francis George, however, presented the issue of homosexuality in the priesthood in a different light.
"The important thing in seminary formation is to ask whether or not a candidate is capable of marriage and family," he said, "because an ordained priest is a married man. He's a committed man, the bride of Christ. The difficulty in formation ... is whether a man can see himself as married and bringing forth new life, which is what a priest is supposed to be."
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On second thought, that whole idea is a ludicrous theological concept. Priests and nuns as brides of Christ? Let's see now, that pretty well covers bi-sexuality, polygamy, multiple sex partners, orgies and sodomy.
Zeus never had it soo good. He must be jealous of the Son of the God of Abraham. |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 13:25:16 [Permalink]
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I was actually more confused about the part where he said that a priests is supposed to be someone who aspires to be married and to bring forth new life. I think you won't find many of those making a vow of celibacy.
But on the other hand, a submisive dependant who sees himself as the 'bride' in a same-sex relationship with a ~2000 year age difference is probably not the right person to let loosed on innocent altar-boys (with the cycle of abuse and everything being what it is.)
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 15:29:18 [Permalink]
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"Brides of Christ" sounds like a B-grade horror flick. 
Lars:
quote:
But on the other hand, a submisive dependant who sees himself as the 'bride' in a same-sex relationship with a ~2000 year age difference is probably not the right person to let loosed on innocent altar-boys (with the cycle of abuse and everything being what it is.)
Ha ha! Yes.
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 17:49:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Brides of Christ" sounds like a B-grade horror flick.
LOL! You know, I think Landover Baptist should produce it. After all, we know just what those Protestant Fundies think of their Catholic counterparts. Here's their chance to show the whole, sordid, unvarnished Truth!
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2002 : 19:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Here's their chance to show the whole, sordid, unvarnished Truth!
Dear, sounds like they'd turn it into porn!
Fine with me, but Tiffany Minx directs!
Erm, not that I know who she is...
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 13:24:05 [Permalink]
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Ok call me crazy, but do these Bishops/Cardinals really need the Pope to tell them that child molestation is a crime or is wrong to do? I mean is that not a pure case of statement of the obvious?
Have you seen where the American Cardinals have re-worded their one strike policy so now it reads something along the lines of notorious pedophiles will be defrocked! Come on, how more vague can you get? What now the guy has to become notorious before he is kicked out?
What would happen if one case involving a public school teacher was discovered? Fired, locked up, and branded for life. However for some reason Catholic priests have to become notorious before loosing their job. What a crock.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 14:18:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
What would happen if one case involving a public school teacher was discovered? Fired, locked up, and branded for life. However for some reason Catholic priests have to become notorious before loosing their job. What a crock.
Which is why I've wondered why this is even an issue.
If someone at (name of corporation) is found to be sexually molesting children, and furthermore, his boss is covering it up, what happens to them? We all know the answer, and it involves orange jumpsuits.
Why should it be any different for a church and its leaders? The law is pretty clear: abusing kids is a crime. Covering for it makes one an accessory after the fact.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2002 : 14:36:41 [Permalink]
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I was going to post something about this myself. The situation is that the cardinals went to Rome, the Pope made a statement and, if I am not mistaken, NOTHING has actually changed. The pedophiles the church has been protecting are still being protected!! They should be heading down to the police station with everything they have on these assholes! I think the FBI should get involved at this point since the church is doing nothing and if church officials are found to have aided these pedophiles they should be locked up, too. It really is that simple. Break the law, go to jail. Did I forget anything?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2002 : 06:53:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
What would happen if one case involving a public school teacher was discovered? Fired, locked up, and branded for life. However for some reason Catholic priests have to become notorious before loosing their job. What a crock.
Actually, I've heard quite a few times of teachers doing the exact same thing, and them being transferred to another school instead of causing a public relations nightmare. No one remembers the big controversy regarding background checks on teachers (which the NEA opposes)? This was started because teachers were being discovered as having been previously convicted of child molestation. School officials would rather quietly cover it up, and act exactly as the Church heirarchy is being accused of acting.
I would bet that this is hardly exclusive to the Catholic Church, nor do I think that we would discover that it was more prominent within the Priesthood.
You could argue that the priests should be held to a higher moral standard than teachers, but I doubt you'll be able to find that it occurs much more often in either case.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/26/2002 06:55:47 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 13:47:45 [Permalink]
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I've been watching and reading the news for the past couple of days, and I'm confused.
On one hand, the Boston Herald is reporting that Cardinal Law is going to be re-assigned to the Vatican.
On the other hand, Law is denying this.
The Herald says its sticking by its story. If this is true, is this the most inept cover-up in history or what?
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Dr Shari
Skeptic Friend
135 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 18:32:54 [Permalink]
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As a some what Catholic Priest expert (I did marry one after all) it is a fact that the number of priests that are pedophiles is equal to that of any position that allows adults contact with children such as Boy Scout leaders or child care workers. The fact that it happened within the framework of the church is just a matter of glee for some skeptics and people of other faiths looking for a reason to discredit Catholisism.
Pedophiles are preditors of children and the sad truth is once a pedophile always a pedophile. Catholic Priests who find that they cannot control themselves around children need to be removed from any situation that gives them power over or access to children. They need to be identified to the authorities and treated the same as any other sex offender.
I am a true skeptic but Priests as the Brides of Jesus is a low stone to throw. Besides Pedophiles are not homosexuals even if it boys they molest. It is the child not the sex of the child that make the victims the target of these sick people.
Though I do think it does have a grade B movie quality that would sell.
Death: The High Cost of Living
It is easier to get forgiveness then to get permission! |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2002 : 18:46:12 [Permalink]
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I don't think that (at least for most) the bruhaha was about anti-catholic glee. If a boy scout leader is accused of molesting children the police are called. If the boy scout leaders boss knew he was molesting kids and did nothing, the cops have another visit to make.
Initially, when this whole story broke, the church was accused of doing a bit of stonewalling. The lives of ordinary folks can be ruined by mere accusation, never mind any proof. When the church was (at first) reluctant to hand over relevant records of suspected abuse, many (including me, I'll admit it) thought the church was putting themselves above the law. As if somehow the clergy had a "commit a felony free" card.
I'm not anti-catholic. I'm not really anti- very much. I'm an atheist who really doesn't care what other people believe as long as they leave me alone.
I met some fine priests while I was in the military. I felt they truly cared about people, not their religion. This hurts them too. If the church had come clean on the whole mess early on, maybe there wouldn't be the temptation to paint the entire priesthood with the same brush.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 15:56:00 [Permalink]
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Hear hear Lisa, great post.
Dr Shari I agree as well with you. Mass stereotyping of all priests is wrong, however how the church has handled this as an institution screams out for rectification.
Even after all of this ruckus they are talking about allowing pedophile priests to carry on until they become "notorious".
#1 if you are a convicted pedophile you are no longer a priest, you go to jail and do your time, and lastly all encounters with children should be supervised.
#2 if you helped cover up the acts of a pedophile, you are no longer a priest, you go to jail and do you time.
Child abuse is a felony. Aiding a felon is a felony.
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