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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
 Posted - 04/30/2002 : 15:59:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
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What would happen if one case involving a public school teacher was discovered? Fired, locked up, and branded for life. However for some reason Catholic priests have to become notorious before loosing their job. What a crock.
Actually, I've heard quite a few times of teachers doing the exact same thing, and them being transferred to another school instead of causing a public relations nightmare. No one remembers the big controversy regarding background checks on teachers (which the NEA opposes)? This was started because teachers were being discovered as having been previously convicted of child molestation. School officials would rather quietly cover it up, and act exactly as the Church heirarchy is being accused of acting.
I would bet that this is hardly exclusive to the Catholic Church, nor do I think that we would discover that it was more prominent within the Priesthood.
You could argue that the priests should be held to a higher moral standard than teachers, but I doubt you'll be able to find that it occurs much more often in either case.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 04/26/2002 06:55:47
If that is the case then any system that allows such behavior to continue and covers it up in such fashion needs to be corrected. If you cover up the actions of a child molestor you have aided a felon and you should do the time that crime carries.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 16:56:59 [Permalink]
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I am a true skeptic but Priests as the Brides of Jesus is a low stone to throw. Besides Pedophiles are not homosexuals even if it boys they molest. It is the child not the sex of the child that make the victims the target of these sick people.
As an ex Catholic meself I would believe just about any story I heard about that sick lot. Back home in Ireland we had a scandal with the Sisters of Mercy that makes this look like a walk in the park. The good sisters had a number of children's corpses on their hands.
But I was wondering Dr Shari why are you trying to distance homosexuals from this scandal when the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation? No one brought up that aspect of these crimes except you. "Brides of Christ" is a title left over from the middle ages when it had a different connotation not somebody calling them sissy boys.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 17:09:36 [Permalink]
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I had heard that it's not just boys being molested. I wish I could give you a link but it's just something I saw during one of the many discussions on CNN recently.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2002 : 19:49:36 [Permalink]
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I had heard that it's not just boys being molested. I wish I could give you a link but it's just something I saw during one of the many discussions on CNN recently.
@tomic
Check out the link I posted on the first page of this thread, it addresses that issue.
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2002 : 13:48:57 [Permalink]
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... why are you trying to distance homosexuals from this scandal when the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation?
Really? Would you share your source?
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2002 : 00:15:57 [Permalink]
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Only slightly related to the original topic, but I wanted to add something I just heard on the news. Appearently Cardinal Law as part of hi defense strategy claims that the negligence of a 6-year old boy and his parents contributed to his abuse.
Whose side is that person on again?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2002 : 00:32:39 [Permalink]
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Law doesn't strike me as someone to go to for moral guidance.
Unless you're in NAMBLA.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2002 : 09:26:11 [Permalink]
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You have to keep in mind that although "not blaming the victim" may seem like basic common sense it is actually a relatively new concept. It stems from the "Humanism" movement of the 17th and 18th centuries. It is completely alien to historic Christianity, which is largely based on the blaming of victims.
The reason it does so, I believe, is because in all the other savior religions there are multiple gods but not in Christianity. With multiple gods you always have a good god(s) vs. bad. The hero is either a godlike man or a lesser god who steps up to save the human race from the bad god.
Christianity having only one god could not have an equally strong bad god to blame evil on. Blame is placed, since there's nowhere else for it to go, on the innocent people who are being saved. Mankind is "fallen;" all men are "sinners." You get lengthy explanations on why people aren't worth saving. Jesus does it because he is good not for any intrinsic value people might have.
This, I think, is the basis for blaming victims. We saw it in 9/11 when Fundi ministers said that god had taken away his protection because Americans were godless sectarians. We see it in the treatment of rape victims. We even see it in the number of programs set up to take care of convicted criminals compared to the number that concern themselves with victims rights.
This is not to exonerate the Cardinal in any way. He should be taught Humanism by caressing his skull with a Louisville Slugger. That might make him more empathetic to the plight of victims.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2002 : 10:39:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Law doesn't strike me as someone to go to for moral guidance.
Unless you're in NAMBLA.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
I wasn't really looking for moral or spirutual guidiance. (Even if we both share some core beliefs - we both don't appear to believe in hell.)
I was kind of not expecting him to tell people, that trusting their children in the care of the church is neglient. That is my point to make. Even if he wins in court with that arument he still looses.
As for the whole blaming the victim thing being a logiacl consequence of monotheism...
That only happens if you think your ideas consequently and logically through (i.e. not very often among true belivers).
Many Christians I have met did see no contradiction in saying that things were the fault of Satan and believing that God was omnipotent.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2002 : 12:24:13 [Permalink]
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Many Christians I have met did see no contradiction in saying that things were the fault of Satan and believing that God was omnipotent.
That's true. But you have to remember that the personality of the Jesus character has changed since the advent of Humanism. Throughout the middle ages almost all Xians prayers were directed to the Virgin Mary in the hopes that mom could get her kid to go easy on you. It got worse when the Protestants came in because they dumped nice old Mary, and Pergatory and even Limbo for the poor dead new borns. All you had was Jesus and fire & brimstone.
That's when Humanism started as a reaction to this dreadful stuff.
Humanism with it's philosophy of Humanitarianism was such a hit that even the Xians adopted it.
Today they like to claim that they invented it, that the bible says that god is the god of love and they always thought this way. But read the writings of any church official from before 1700 and you'll find none of that nice stuff at all.
The devil being less powerful than god does leave you with a lot of logical problems. But these are people with three gods who keep insisting that they are monotheists and smile when they boast that they don't understand why.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 09:10:22 [Permalink]
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But I was wondering Dr Shari why are you trying to distance homosexuals from this scandal when the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation? No one brought up that aspect of these crimes except you.
Having recieved more information than I had when I made this statement I should like to revise it. Please now read "the only pedophiles" as "the majority of pedophiles." I still don't understand why the sexual orientation of the criminal priests was even brought up by Dr. Shari .
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 09:40:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
But I was wondering Dr Shari why are you trying to distance homosexuals from this scandal when the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation? No one brought up that aspect of these crimes except you.
Having recieved more information than I had when I made this statement I should like to revise it. Please now read "the only pedophiles" as "the majority of pedophiles." I still don't understand why the sexual orientation of the criminal priests was even brought up by Dr. Shari.
May I ask what data you have confirming that the majority of pedophiles are homosexuals?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 11:19:48 [Permalink]
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May I ask what data you have confirming that the majority of pedophiles are homosexuals?
The perverts are male, as are all Roman Catholic priests. The majority of their poor little victims are also male. They are the same gender. The prefix "homo", as in homosexual, comes from the Greek word meaning "same".
"Homosexual" denotes copulation between members of the same gender. That is what the majority of these cases is about.
Or is it your premise that definition of the word is more exclusive than that, and would not include cases of child molesting?
Re-reading Dr. Shari I'm begining to think that that was what she was trying to say. I still wonder why she brought this aspect up to begin with.
And I wish that when people came up with their own novel definitions for words that they would let the rest of us know in advance. This reminds me of several Xians who have posted here who have stated that Xians can only do good things. When some of the world's more nasty Xians were pointed out to them they countered by saying that these people weren't really Xians because they didn't do good things.
Shari started by defending Homosexuals by saying that they had nothing to do with this. No one had ever said that they had at this point.
What I contend is that Christians are just people. And Homosexuals are just people. And sometimes people commit crimes.
A few of these perverts are Straight, as you've pointed out. No one is saying that these priests aren't straight because they molested little girls. It never came up, it's a non-point. Just like it is a non-point that the ones who molested the alter boys aren't straight. I for one find it offensive that the topic was brought up to begin with. But, since it was brought up, the point I was making was that it was hypocritical. And it smacked of implied guilt, much like shouting, "We didn't do it !!!" when no one had ever said that you had.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 11:47:01 [Permalink]
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I agree, it really doesn't matter what an offender's sexual orientation is. If they committed this crime they are equally guilty either way. And has anyone noticed how the press only covers a few cases and these have all been male victims and then they are covered to death. Then in discussions it is briefly mentioned that many of the victims are female but you never see them intervied or the cases specifically addressed. I have no idea why the coverage is done this way but I think it does lead to the perception that all these crimes are involving males.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 12:29:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
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May I ask what data you have confirming that the majority of pedophiles are homosexuals?
"Homosexual" denotes copulation between members of the same gender. That is what the majority of these cases is about.
Or is it your premise that definition of the word is more exclusive than that, and would not include cases of child molesting?
Yes, that is my understanding. For example ...
quote:
Explaining Pedophilia
The biggest misunderstanding many people have is that pedophilia and homosexuality are one and the same. But to say that all homosexuals are pedophiles, or that all pedophiles are homosexual, is like comparing apples to rat poison. "They certainly are two distinct things," says James Hord, a psychologist in Panama City, Fla., who specializes in treating sexually abused children.
Hord explains that while some pedophiles may prefer boys over girls, or vice versa, it's not so much about gender as it is about age. For homosexuals, Hord says, sexual preference is "simply not linked to the age." If a man, for instance, is attracted to other adult males, he is a homosexual. A man who is sexually attracted to male children is not considered a homosexual: He is a pedophile.
[see http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1687.51642 - RD]
quote:
A sexual abuser who molests a child of the same sex is usually not considered homosexual.
Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, “The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women.”
“It is meaningless to speak of fixated molesters in these terms – as heterosexual or homosexuals - they are attracted to children, not to men or women. (Groth & Birnbaum, 1978).
[see http://hrc.grassroots.com/family/soandchildabusefact/ - RD]
quote:
ACLU Fact Sheet: Overview of Lesbian and Gay Parenting, Adoption and Foster Care
Fact: There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. All of the legitimate scientific evidence shows that. Sexual orientation, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is an adult sexual attraction to others. Pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult sexual attraction to children. Ninety percent of child abuse is committed by heterosexual men. In one study of 269 cases of child sexual abuse, only two offenders were gay or lesbian. Of the cases studied involving molestation of a boy by a man, 74 percent of the men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boy's mother or another female relative. The study concluded that "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual."
[see http://www.aclu.org/issues/gay/parent.html - RD]
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 05/03/2002 12:36:22 |
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