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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 05/03/2002 : 13:04:47 [Permalink]
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I see.
I do, some what, understand the point. But I must admit that it sounds like PC back peddling to me, what with declarations that males that have sex with other males are heterosexual.
If they are banished from the homosexual kingdom for their crimes then they should be banished from the hetero also.
Myself, I am Irish and am very committed to a free and united Ireland.
There are others, also Irish, also committed to a free and united Ireland who are more than happy to murder innocent people to advance the cause.
We really wish that we could seperate ourselves from these criminals. And we do to an extent by calling them "terrorists." Yet we can't deny that they are the same people we are and want exactly the same thing we do.
It would be nice to say that they weren't Irish, that Irish people don't do things like that. They must be English.
But some how we aren't allowed to get away with twisting words like that.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 14:24:25 [Permalink]
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I think the distinction between pedophilia and homosexual goes beyond 'political correctness'. In the case of pedophilia, it is being asserted that the victim's gender is more a function of opportunity than one of gender preference.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 15:06:23 [Permalink]
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I think it's fair to say, correct me if I'm wrong and i know someone will  , that a misconception on what drives a pedophile does not make one a homophobe.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 17:06:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think it's fair to say, correct me if I'm wrong and i know someone will , that a misconception on what drives a pedophile does not make one a homophobe.
Were I to believe that homosexuality "drives" pedodophilia, I would fear giving homosexuals access to my grandchildren. If these beliefs proved contrary to readily available facts, it would be fair to wonder why I was predisposed to hold them.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 17:27:43 [Permalink]
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That's fair enough but to say the default reason why is "homophobia" is pc paranoia.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:01:40 [Permalink]
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One of the things that bug me about political correctness is the fact that PCers tend not to hear what is being said but only what they want to hear.
"He is saying something biggoted, I just know it! Get him!!!"
If you say something like "all the child molesters in a given case were gay" what comes back to you is that you said "all gays are child molesters." When nothing could be further from the truth.
It's like trying to talk to fascists. Not only must one toe the party line but one must also use exactly the approved words.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:44:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you say something like "all the child molesters in a given case were gay" what comes back to you is that you said "all gays are child molesters." When nothing could be further from the truth.
Not at all. It never occurred to me that you thought "all homosexuals are pedophiles". It did occur to me to wonder why you assumed (and asserted) that all acts of pedophilia in question were committed by homosexuals.
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 18:58:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
That's fair enough but to say the default reason why is "homophobia" is pc paranoia.
I don't know what is meant by "pc paranoia". I don't fear non-factual social steriotypes; I just don't like them. As for the rest, what would you suggest as a default reason for claiming that all pedophilic acts in question were committed by homosexual priests?
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -- Stephen Roberts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2002 : 19:25:51 [Permalink]
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I am suggesting nothing else as a default. What I do suggest is that there are many possible reasons for our perceptions and that declaring a perception that does not agree with yours is homophobia might be unfair and and extreme. It's fine to show some data that supports your view in the hope of clarifying things. Saying someone is a homophobe when you don't even know why someone said what they did is not going to make someone receptive to hearing your argument.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 03:39:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Check out the link I posted on the first page of this thread, it addresses that issue.
Hey, Rat...It seems everybody has been either avoiding your post, or just ignoring it.
I started out avoiding this thread, because I have felt all along the the church has been using the the 'Gay' issue, the press and homophobia to deflect the church's own tolerance of pedophilia. The article posted by Rat from a web site for victims of abuse by priests only serves to bolster my beliefs.
Let's get two things out of the Catholic closet right off the bat; pedophilia is a terrible crime, and should be punished appropriately, and tolerating it by not reporting the crime is no better. Furthermore, gender preference has not a DAMNED thing to do with it!
That said, without the church being open and forthright on this issue, there is nothing left to discuss which is not mere speculation. However, I do think that sexual orientation is important here, but only because the press and the church, (and a few others that are posting to this thread), have made it an important issue. And, I really could give a good s@*% about political correctness, but the scapegoating, and the innuendo, and the fascination with 'gay' priests that abuse children, rather than pedophiles is a reflection of the homophobia still rampant in our society. F*#% the p.c. b. s.. Let's call a child molester what he/she is--A criminal. And the bastards that look the other way, and cover up, and scapegoat are what? Yeah, criminals...They all deserve a long sleep over at the friendly neighborhood penal institution.
Rat's article, also, touched on another issue I think is important. It is quite possible that the priesthood has more than it's share of homosexuals, as compared to the general population. Many of these priests were once confused boys living in a very religious family or society. When they became teens they began to notice that they were different. They didn't get real excited about a date with Betty Lou, the head cheerleader. Plus, a trip to the locker room instilled dire fear in that they may become overly excited by a glimpse of star quarterback Billy Ray's tush.
And, he still loved God!
Our young friend is now stuck in a world where he is so different that his feelings may get him a few good butt whippings, from both Dad and Billy Ray. This kid, also, has to deal with the idea that God hates him.
Well, in our boy's little world, he is completely worthless. His only avenue to become something important in life, rather than a snivelling little fag condemned forever to a straight hell, is to make up with God, and "marry Jesus."
Now, this kid has never had as much as a date, gay or straight, and he's grown up--Sort of. His last interaction with the real world was as a confused and closeted gay teenager. He's taken a vow of celibacy. His only friends are teenaged boys. Our scared and confused little boy is now in charge.
Maybe, the Catholic church should reevaluate it's priorities?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 06:40:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am suggesting nothing else as a default. What I do suggest is that there are many possible reasons for our perceptions and that declaring a perception that does not agree with yours is homophobia might be unfair and and extreme.
Slater wrote: "But I was wondering Dr Shari why are you trying to distance homosexuals from this scandal when the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation?" [emphasis added - RD]
@tomic, you are correct to note that such a position need not be the result of a fear of homosexuals or homosexualism and, given that, my charge of homophobia might well have been unfair and extreme. I should have used the phrase "anti-homosexual stereotype". I apologize to Slater, and the forum as a whole, for not doing so.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 10:31:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
I should have used the phrase "anti-homosexual stereotype". I apologize to Slater, and the forum as a whole, for not doing so.
You haven't shown it to be that either.
Perhaps I should point out, to give you a clearer idea of what I am saying is that I live in San Francisco. I both employ and socialize with Homosexuals. They are not "a rare breed" here but are the ordinary people of ordinary life-and therefore do not recieve the sacred cow status you afford them.
In San Francisco on CBS and NBC news the only cases reported were males buggering males. I heard of no others before the handful were posted on this site. The Church reps were on the air everyday shaking their heads over the large number of Gays in the clergy. And HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO no one complained, no one contradicted them. People are not slow to protest any precieved offence in this burg, we are famous for that, but no one protested the churchs claims.
But then no one here is trying to tar and feather their opponent in a debate about the supernatural. Is it your thought that if I am a bad person then your claims of a "supernatural" become true?
I'm ugly and I smell bad too, maybe that means there's something outside of nature, do ya think?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 20:03:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
I should have used the phrase "anti-homosexual stereotype". I apologize to Slater, and the forum as a whole, for not doing so.
You haven't shown it to be that either.
I submit that your assertion that: "the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation" is an anti-homosexual stereotype on the face of it.
quote:
Perhaps I should point out, to give you a clearer idea of what I am saying is that I live in San Francisco.
I lived there for about 11 years starting in 1964 - mostly in the Mission District near 21st and Treat and 16th and Guerrerro.
quote:
I both employ and socialize with Homosexuals.
Some of your best friends are Homosexuals ...
quote:
They are not "a rare breed" here but are the ordinary people of ordinary life ...
I totally agree.
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... and therefore do not recieve the sacred cow status you afford them.
I don't. Nor do I insist, without evidence, that the male victims of pedophilia were victimized by homosexuals.
quote:
In San Francisco on CBS and NBC news the only cases reported were males buggering males. I heard of no others before the handful were posted on this site. The Church reps were on the air everyday shaking their heads over the large number of Gays in the clergy. And HERE IN SAN FRANCISCO no one complained, no one contradicted them. People are not slow to protest any precieved offence in this burg, we are famous for that, but no one protested the churchs claims.
The only cases reported ... you heard of no others ... and no one complained ... Well, that explains it. It was San Francisco's fault! The following were readily available. Please let me know if you would like more.
quote:
[from the San Francisco Chronicle -- Saturday, May 4, 2002]
New ministry aids victims of clergy abuse
Oakland church leaders, survivors also work toward reconciliation
< ... >
Anguella, 59, said she was abused by three different priests in the Midwest and Southern California between the ages of 7 and 9.
< ... >
[emphasis added; see http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/04/BA22063.DTL - RD]
quote:
[from the San Francisco Chronicle -- Sunday, April 28, 2002]
PRIESTLY SINS
Putting Pedophilia in Perspective
Scandal resurrects incorrect stereotype about gay men
< ... >
There are multiple tragedies arising from the pedophile-priest scandal rocking the Catholic Church: innocence invaded, families disfigured, faith shattered.
But there's an equally odious semantic configuration oozing from church officials and from media reports about the scandal: the conflation of "homosexual" and "pedophile."
This canard used to be employed to underscore the incorrect belief that homosexual men, by dint of their orientation, were attracted to young boys and unable to control their desires.
Gay men are coming for your children, the sentiment went. That stigma effectively barred gay men from positions of authority over young males as teachers, camp counselors, Boy Scout troop leaders, sports coaches.
It is, of course, untrue. Homosexual men are no more attracted to young boys than heterosexual men are universally attracted to young girls. Moreover, most male-male pedophiles identify as heterosexuals.
The pedophilia-homosexuality trope used to be a convenient fund-raising tool for certain religious organizations. They're coming for your kids, but we can save you; give us money. But the facts didn't support the notion, and it was rightly discredited.
< ... >
[emphasis added; see http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/28/IN168085.DTL - RD]
quote:
But then no one here is trying to tar and feather their opponent in a debate about the supernatural. Is it your thought that if I am a bad person then your claims of a "supernatural" become true? I'm ugly and I smell bad too, maybe that means there's something outside of nature, do ya think?
Neither living in San Francisco nor being ugly and smelly are relevant. Furthermore, I make no "claims of a supernatural". What I did, in fact, was quote and support the Skeptic's Dictionary reference on Naturalism. It's not my favorite, but I'm more than willing to stand by it. Just do me one favor: please re-read the quote carefully before launching a polemic. Alternatively, maybe we should put the whole thing behind us -- I suspect that we agree on a good deal.
By the way, there use to be a great cafeteria on Valencia near 14th that had the best Huevos Rancheros. I'm heading out there in July -- any chance that the place is still there?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2002 : 23:34:44 [Permalink]
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I submit that your assertion that: "the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation" is an anti-homosexual stereotype on the face of it.
This is exactly what I was talking about when I complained about how Politically Correct Fascists will take what you say about one small set of people in one case and twist it to encompass everyone in the world. You should be get help for this paranoia, it's out of control .
I lived there for about 11 years … I'm glad you left, the city already has it's share of problems without you added to them.
Some of your best friends are Homosexuals ... No. None of my closest friends are Homosexuals. Some of my best employees are though.
quote:
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They are not "a rare breed" here but are the ordinary people of ordinary life ...
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I totally agree.
Fibber. You make them out to be above reproach. I'm sure that this is true only of certain groups. I would guess blacks, homosexuals, women and maybe Japanese if they happen to be trendy with your set.
I would bet that if someone said "six straight white men just held up a bank," you would say "you can't trust those bastards."
But if that same person said "six black lesbians just held up the bank," you would berate them for being homophobes, bigots, and racists. And claim that they were stereotyping every black on the planet as a thief.
In fact I'll bet that you'll berate me for using the term "black" and post a dozen web sites that demand some more trendy term.
Nor do I insist, without evidence, that the male victims of pedophilia were victimized by homosexuals.
Because you demand that males who have sex with other males are heterosexual. How can any one respond to nonsense like that?
The only cases reported ... you heard of no others ... and no one complained ... Well, that explains it. It was San Francisco's fault! The following were readily available. Please let me know if you would like more.
I'm telling you the information I had, and where I got it from and the indications that strongly indicated it was correct.
from the San Francisco Chronicle -- Saturday, May 4, 2002
I don't read the Chronicle it is too poorly written. They don't even have Spellcheck over there.
I don't doubt that there was more information than I possessed. I'm telling you all the information I possessed when I wrote what I wrote. Only you seem to be all knowing.
Alternatively, maybe we should put the whole thing behind us -- I suspect that we agree on a good deal.
Okay, you stop calling me homophobic and I'll stop calling you a fascist.
By the way, there use to be a great cafeteria on Valencia near 14th that had the best Huevos Rancheros. I'm heading out there in July -- any chance that the place is still there? Not that I know of, but you can't throw a rock in that neighborhood without hitting a good place to eat. You wont find a place to park, but eating is no problem.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2002 : 06:20:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Nor do I insist, without evidence, that the male victims of pedophilia were victimized by homosexuals.
Because you demand that males who have sex with other males are heterosexual.
That is absolute garbage. Either quote me making such a demand, or retract the distortion!
quote:
How can any one respond to nonsense like that?
How pathetic! It is truly beyond amazing that you still don't get it:
A. males with a sexual preference for adult males are homosexuals
B. males with a sexual preference for adult females are heterosexuals
C. females with a sexual preference for adult females are homosexuals
D. females with a sexual preference for adult males are heterosexuals
E. males with a sexual preference for male children are pedophiles
F. males with a sexual preference for female children are pedophiles
G. females with a sexual preference for male children are pedophiles
H. females with a sexual preference for female children are pedophiles
I. homosexuals are no more likely to victimize children than are heterosexuals, conversely
J. pedophiles who victimize same-sex children are no more likely to be homosexuals than heterosexuals
It is simply wrong to assert that "the only pedophiles involved are homosexuals comitting homosexual child molestation". That statement would be no less inaccurate if applied solely to the victimization of boys by male adults.
Again ...
quote:
ACLU Fact Sheet: Overview of Lesbian and Gay Parenting, Adoption and Foster Care
Fact: There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. All of the legitimate scientific evidence shows that. Sexual orientation, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is an adult sexual attraction to others. Pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult sexual attraction to children. Ninety percent of child abuse is committed by heterosexual men. In one study of 269 cases of child sexual abuse, only two offenders were gay or lesbian. Of the cases studied involving molestation of a boy by a man, 74 percent of the men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boy's mother or another female relative. The study concluded that "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual."
[emphasis added; see http://www.aclu.org/issues/gay/parent.html - RD]
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 05/05/2002 06:40:14 |
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