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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2002 : 16:29:16 [Permalink]
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That's quite an extraordinary claim there Gorgo. How about some extraordinary proof....
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:19:37 [Permalink]
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Well, we could give you a test, but I think it's reasonable to assume you can at least write at a fourth grade level.
quote:
That's quite an extraordinary claim there Gorgo. How about some extraordinary proof....
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:50:06 [Permalink]
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See, that's what I mean. You respond just like that any and everytime you are asked to produce some evidence. Yet, in your haste, you forget to drop the evidence off.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:50:18 [Permalink]
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Y>X. X is known, Y is unknown.
quote:
How did we get from the first claim to the second admission?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:52:29 [Permalink]
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See, that's what I mean. You snipe at others and add nothing but the occasional hmmmm.
quote:
See, that's what I mean.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:53:23 [Permalink]
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So, I am guessing you don't have any....
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 17:57:38 [Permalink]
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Any what? Any time to waste posting information that you don't have the ability to comprehend, which others ignore while they're telling me about their experiences in the fourth grade?
quote:
So, I am guessing you don't have any....
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 18:12:53 [Permalink]
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I am satisfied with your answer.
Thanks
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 19:52:12 [Permalink]
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Back after a pleasant week-end in the sun, to find a heap of nonsense, the likes of which I thought we'd finally been able to move beyond.
Alas, no, I realise. I originally came to this forum, to be able to discuss and debate with sceptics in a civilised and mature way. To cover various topics and hear different opinions.
Slater> You claim monopoly on the truth, in the most irrational manner. You post claims without a shred of evidence or anything else to back up your points. Am I suppose to take it serious?
Example:
Me :” So all Japanese were "tough mother fu—ers"? Not humans?”
You: ”Again with the "race card"?!
Now, I don't know if your memory is lacking. Must I remind you, who was the first to call the Japanese that? Actually, your reply makes no sense whatsoever.
” This is a strange tactic. Don't all of these straw-men itch?
Here let me try the same thing…Why are you supporting the Axis, you must be a Nazi!! You think you are a member of the master race!!
AAAhhhchhooo!!! Sorry… hay fever. All of this straw makes me sneeze.”
Meaning what? You're the one who brought up the stereotypes of the Japanese, not I. Then, when I point that out you get ill? Poor you, calm down and try a rational approach. Slinging crap around makes you look childish and does not prove anything nor your points.
Me: ”If Hiroshima was this, now suddenly huge, massive gigantic military base I'd still like to know, why it hadn't been bombed by conventional means prior to August 6th 1945.”
”Suddenly? It had been a military installation since the Russian war.”
No answer, hm? Too difficult? Come on, I'm sure you can do better than to change the subject.
” I didn't call it "a " military base, in fact I ticked off the different types of bases that were there.”
And I wrote that Truman called it a military base and asked if he was right. Your reply, ”Why yes.”
” We did what we could to get the civilians out of the way.”
We? You were part of the Truman administration??
” He (Truman) should have said numerous military bases.”
Can you make up your mind, please? So Truman was right or wrong when he called Hiroshima a military base???
Hey. It's a simple question this one. Hiroshima was not a military base. It was a city with militray installations.
Me: The Japanese soldiers, sailors, and airmen were hiding behind civilians and mounting attack after attack."
Prove it, please.
”Already did.”
No, you didn't.
” Saying it a giga-zillion may help you believe it--but it doesn't make it a fact. If he was intending to surrender anyway why not after Okinawa? Or after the fire bombing of Tokyo? Or after the first Atomic bomb? Even I am not that bad a procrastinator that it takes the destruction of three cities to get me off my ass to do something I already intended to do.”
Oh, I'm sorry. I shouldn't use figures of speeches here, I can see it confuses you. I've covered this MANY times by now, in details in my first two posts. Try and read them.
” And seeing you sympathies for Imperial Japan I can see where you are coming from.”
Humour, weeh, I love it! Now I sympathize with Imperial Japan? I wonder what will be next. The list of personal attacks instead of arguments from your side is getting rather large. It doesn't proce your point, though.
” I see, you flip back and forth from 2002 to 1945 at will. Context/ out of context, it's all the same to you. Just so long as you can call people racists.”
When has 2002 been brought up here?
When have I called anyone a racist?
What exactly is out of context?
”Your moral high ground is a fantasy. You're saying that we shouldn't have fought with the Japanese because they are Japanese and we are lily white.”
Where did I say this now?
”So we are racists because they attacked us and we fought back. Maybe it's okay that we won the Second World War but we shouldn't have hurt anyone while we were doing it.”
Who is calling anyone a racist? Who's spending a lot of t |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 22:38:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
It's airforce became ineffective not from a lack of planes, but from a lack of trained pilots.
If you kill the pilot the combat missions will not be flown until another pilot is trained-a matter of weeks.
If you blow up the planes and destroy the ability to make planes no more combat missions will be flown until a new factory and all the equiptment in it is build-that could take months if not years. It is much better stragegy to destroy the enemy's ability to continue making war , it puts your own people at much less risk.
And once you have conquered them it makes for a much more stable peace if they are unable to rearm themselves.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Do you just nay say for the sake of nay saying? The pilot was in WWII and stills is today the most important part of the Aircraft. It takes months to properly train a pilot and even then their surviving their first real combat is iffy. The Japanese lost the war at Midway when they lost so many of their exerienced pilots. After that point even when US Navy pilots were flying machine technically inferior to the Japanese they one the fight because they were better pilots. The good Japanese pilots were already dead.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 22:39:38 [Permalink]
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The debate levels have been dragged down by Atomic and Slater, who display that they've entered a discussion, already with their mind set on what they believe, and not at all interested in debating, but in annoying and personally attacking other debaters.
So who was it @tomic? Robert Burns I think; who said 'oh what a gift the goodies give us, to see ourselves as others see us.'
I'm so glad that she didn't have her mind set on what she believed but weighed all the evidence, like what the Japanese themselves had to say. And that she didn't lower herself to personal attacks.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 23:08:38 [Permalink]
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do you just nay say for the sake of nay saying?
Do you always combine questions with replys to other questions? I was talking about the strategy behind destroying the factories that supplied war equipment.
The pilot was in WWII and stills is today the most important part of the Aircraft. It takes months to properly train a pilot and even then their surviving their first real combat is iffy.
At the end they weren't bothering to teach their boys how to land.
The Japanese lost the war at Midway when they lost so many of their exerienced pilots.
It comes down to a matter of time and money. They still had time to train new pilots, but they didn't have time to replace the carriers we sank. If they hadn't been caught refueling and reloading torpedos in the planes on the flight deck they might have stayed afloat and been repairable. That would have been a disaster for us even if we got their pilots.
They stopped winning the war at Midway so in a sense lost it there. But there were a lot of islands that had to be taken one by one before they would admit defeat.
This was still a land & sea war of the Navy and the Marines.
After that point even when US Navy pilots were flying machine technically inferior to the Japanese they one the fight because they were better pilots. The good Japanese pilots were already dead.
They were dead because our Navy pilots were already better and luckier than they were.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2002 : 23:55:16 [Permalink]
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I think there are a few more things to be said. Now you want to blame the US for starting the war because it blocked Japan's access to resources. You mean the resources from the lands it was conquering? How dare them! They have a right to all the stuff after they have killed their enemies I suppose. No one is around to claim it.
The racism remarks were one of the worst turn of this discussion. And who dragged that out? The funny thing is, the Japanese are not a race. It's a nationality...a culture. It is not a race. So the Japanese were tough mothers? That is not a derogatory thing to say when you are referring to the way a nation fights in war. It is a compliment. Japan was a nation who's people were willing to die for their emperor. Unfortunately, that emperor was willing to take them up on that and throw away his people's lives. Today the Japanese people are no longer the chattel of the emperor. That's because the racist American's brought freedom and democracy as a cost of surrender.
It is unfair to say that anyone is unskeptical until they come around to your way of thinking. Issues like this can and do have more than one point of view even after all the facts have been laid on the table. It's not a computer program that spits put T or F.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 03:11:29 [Permalink]
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Welcome back Omega. I apologize to you and others who attempt to be reasonable on this forum for lapsing into my adolescence in response to what I see as insanity.
To continue, here's a piece on Pentagon P.R. http://www.zmag.org/solpr.htm Not that using P.R. makes anyone bad, just to remember that that's what we're talking about when we see pieces like Garrette posted. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of military people engaged in humanitarian work. Just because it's PR, doesn't make it a complete lie. This is a good time to address the black and white thinking that people (if you can call it thinking) on this forum engage in. If one criticizes U.S. policy, that means that we think everything the U.S. does is bad, and everything their enemies do is good.
To get back to the numbers of Afghans dead, I don't know the answer. My point was, before we got into a pissing contest, that we don't know. There are those that speculate, and I have seen some credible speculations that reach into the thousands, but we do not know. The only people that can tell us for sure are not interested in knowing. If I can find some information, I'll post it for those that care. There is not a lot of information.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 06:53:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
It comes down to a matter of time and money. They still had time to train new pilots, but they didn't have time to replace the carriers we sank. If they hadn't been caught refueling and reloading torpedos in the planes on the flight deck they might have stayed afloat and been repairable. That would have been a disaster for us even if we got their pilots.
This was still a land & sea war of the Navy and the Marines.
You say they had time, but the fact is they were never able to replace them. I do not know how many if any carriers were built after Midway. I do agree the loss was a big blow to the Japanese and it happened in battle where wars are decided. quote:
They stopped winning the war at Midway so in a sense lost it there. But there were a lot of islands that had to be taken one by one before they would admit defeat.
I found that funny. You are correct in that the Islands had to be taken first.
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