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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2002 : 06:58:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
If one criticizes U.S. policy, that means that we think everything the U.S. does is bad, and everything their enemies do is good.
You repeat this like a mantra.
There is not one person on this board who posts here who thinks this way.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 07:08:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
TD> I have not, as of yet, met any evidence to convince me it was not a CaH.
Ditto vice versa.
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A city was chosen for visual effects?
Yes, but that was hardly the only criteria.
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To demonstrate to Russia the possession of nuclear weapons and keep them from entering Japan.
That was a bonus, but I highly doubt that if this wasn't a factor, the U.S. would have chosen not to use the atomic bomb on Hiroshima.
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The bombs were to be used before the end of the war, nowhere was it said to END the war.
Now you are sounding desperate. I believe that you are just as guilty of what you accuse Slater and @tomic of. No matter what, you will never believe that dropping the atomic bomb was not a CaH.
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There were no warnings.
No specific warnings. However, do you really believe this point supports your position? The Japanese were well aware of the possibility of bombing. There was an air raid warning just about an hour before the atomic bomb was dropped in fact. They were at war, for Bacchus' sake!
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Had a demonstration at least been attempted, as it was suggested by some of the Manhattan Project scientists, I'd view it differently.
This has been addressed, and the explanation is entirely reasonable. Do you disagree?
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Using the bomb in a demonstration on an evacuated city or uninhabited area was seriously considered
but rejected on two grounds. The U.S. only had two A-Bombs at this point, and using one in a manner that may
be less than decisive was deemed too risky. Second, if the demo bomb were to be a dud, such a grand failure
would likely fuel Japanese resistance making a full-scale invasion the only alternative.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 06/04/2002 07:12:04 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 07:27:39 [Permalink]
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I think even Garrette's latest response shows this. The message I get from him is, of course we didn't do anything wrong, look, we're helping people. Meaning that I must think that all the U.S. does is slash and burn. Some of it is P.R. bullshit, and some of it is real concern for human life. If human life doesn't get in the way of profit, U.S. leaders like it a lot.
@tomic's latest response shows this too. If someone suggests that Satan didn't just pop up out of nowhere and bomb the center of the U.S. for nothing, it is suggested that we are "blaming" the United States for the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Imagine thinking that there may be more than one side to most stories.
There are probably better examples throughout my history with Skeptic Friends, but these are the easiest.
quote:
You repeat this like a mantra.
There is not one person on this board who posts here who thinks this way.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 06/04/2002 07:32:46 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 08:05:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
If someone suggests that Satan didn't just pop up out of nowhere and bomb the center of the U.S. for nothing, it is suggested that we are "blaming" the United States for the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
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After an attempt to broker a deal for a division of influence with Japan fell apart, the US blockaded Japan's access to much needed raw materials. Japan responded with the attack on the US fleet in Pearl Harbour, removing the major obstacle to the advance of its forces south to grab French, Dutch and British colonies in south east Asia.
If @tomic is mistaken in his interpretation of what the above means, I am equally so. Seems pretty clear to me that it is being said that the US asked for it by having the unmitigated gall of getting in Japan's way.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 08:44:12 [Permalink]
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Of course you think that way, and that is exactly what I am saying. To suggest that there might be a history behind the bombing of a U.S. colony is traitorous and is tantamount to saying that the U.S. is to "blame."
The official history, of course, is that the U.S. saved the world from Hitler by entering the war, that everyone that was involved acted heroically every minute. To suggest that the U.S. didn't enter the war because of Hitler, and that Japan and the U.S. had a history is to somehow pull every dead veteran out of their graves and stomp on them.
The U.S. wanted to exploit Asia in the same way Japan had, Japan said, okay, if you want to exploit Asia, you've got to let us into Latin America. The U.S. said no, that caused problems, the West slapped some sanctions on Japan, and the rest is non-history.
quote:
If @tomic is mistaken in his interpretation of what the above means, I am equally so. Seems pretty clear to me that it is being said that the US asked for it by having the unmitigated gall of getting in Japan's way.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 06/04/2002 08:45:12
Edited by - gorgo on 06/04/2002 08:45:59 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 08:51:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
The U.S. wanted to exploit Asia in the same way Japan had, Japan said, okay, if you want to exploit Asia, you've got to let us into Latin America. The U.S. said no, that caused problems, the West slapped some sanctions on Japan, and the rest is non-history.
Your argument is missing one crucial element Gorgo. After Japan was defeated and nothing was in America's way the US did not do what you claim. Especially when you say exploit Asia in the same way Japan had. I never heard about the US using slave labor or turning all the women into entertainment for the troops. What happened Gorgo??
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 09:13:57 [Permalink]
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Well, certainly only Asians enslave people and treat women shabbily. I had forgotten that, thanks for reminding me. Anyone that doesn't think that hasn't watched enough John Wayne movies.
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Your argument is missing one crucial element Gorgo. After Japan was defeated and nothing was in America's way the US did not do what you claim. Especially when you say exploit Asia in the same way Japan had. I never heard about the US using slave labor or turning all the women into entertainment for the troops. What happened Gorgo??
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 09:41:32 [Permalink]
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LOL, there you go again!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 09:49:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Anyone that doesn't think that hasn't watched enough John Wayne movies.
Or talked to a Korean woman, or a Chinese, or Tonkinese, or Filipina, or Guamianian. In fact I don't recall John Wayne ever bringing this subject up, don't think it could have passed the film board.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 09:54:44 [Permalink]
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Certainly Southeast Asia was a paradise after Western involvement.
quote:
Or talked to a Korean woman,
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 09:55:26 [Permalink]
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There you 'LOL' again.
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LOL, there you go again!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 11:06:13 [Permalink]
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I am equal parts frustrated and fascinated. Gorgo, you're surreal. 
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 11:53:37 [Permalink]
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TD, I think your choice of drugs might be a topic for a different forum. 
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2002 : 13:38:01 [Permalink]
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You give us a guestimate? 
Got any facts?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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