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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2002 : 05:34:59
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2002 : 06:23:33 [Permalink]
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This is not really what is meant by the laws of thermodynmaics.
What is meant is that everytime you do something like killing birds or anything at all the overall entropy of the universe is increased a bit.
Cleaning up your room for example might appear to you as increasing the order of the universe, but in reality you decrease it. The problem is that we percive order and chaos on a different level then the one the laws of thermodynamics are talking about.
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2002 : 11:15:04 [Permalink]
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Like Lars said, that is not really what the second law is about.
The 2nd law is about the amount of disorder of energy in a system. It's not the complexity of information.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2002 : 12:03:33 [Permalink]
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If you want to be really banally technical about it, the 2nd Law is concerned with heat transfer between entities and systems.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2002 : 14:58:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
If you want to be really banally technical about it, ....
well, yeah! :)
Non-technical understandings of it are why we keep hearing it brought up again and again...and again *cringe*...in every evolution-creation debate.
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Chagur
New Member
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2002 : 19:42:49 [Permalink]
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Hmm ... Closed systems & closed minds.
Decent combination.
Take care.
"Fie, fie how franticly I square my talk!" -Edwin A. Abbott - |
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MartinM
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2002 : 19:54:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
And the law only applies to a closed system.
<a href="mailto:antares7@csd.uwm.edu">Ian Andreas Miller</a>. <a href="http://antares7.prettyodango.net/index.html">DIES GAUDII</a>.
Well - no. It applies Universally. It is equivalent to the statement 'Entropy always increases in a closed system'. This statement is true even in an open system, it just doesn't tell you much.
But here - next time a Creationist brings up 2nd Law, just post this -
dE + PdV - TdS <= 0
and ask them what exactly about this is inconsistent with Evolution.
(Incidentally, the above is the combined 1st and 2nd Laws of TD)
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2002 : 11:34:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well - no. It applies Universally. It is equivalent to the statement 'Entropy always increases in a closed system'. This statement is true even in an open system, it just doesn't tell you much.
Although entropy can certainly increase in an open system, the Law still applies to an isolated system.
Scientific Laws are generalized expressions of specific phenomena.
Note that entropy can decrease in an open system, so the Law does not work there.
In thermodynamics, you need to properly "draw the box" (define the system) in order to make the calculations work out.
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Phobos
New Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2002 : 11:37:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmm ... Closed systems & closed minds.
Decent combination.
Take care.
Care to explain?
Keep an open mind...but not so open that all your brains fall out.
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MartinM
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2002 : 11:56:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Note that entropy can decrease in an open system, so the Law does not work there.
No, the law works just fine there. It just doesn't tell you much. The statement 'entropy canot decrease in a closed system' is still true in an open system.
quote:
In thermodynamics, you need to properly "draw the box" (define the system) in order to make the calculations work out.
Absolutely. After all, an increase in entropy is due to our information about the systme (or lack therof) rather than any fundamental thermodynamic processes. From a microscopic point, dS = 0 for all processes. But this ony holds if one can have exact knowledge of the system in question.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2002 : 13:22:06 [Permalink]
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I remember reading this link somewhere here, I believe.
I thought the mention of the hydraulic ram as a mechanical device that seemingly violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was quite interesting.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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jesusfreak4life
New Member
7 Posts |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2002 : 22:45:57 [Permalink]
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Your linked argument also completely disproves reality, little trooper.
Not even a nice try.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 06:15:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by jesusfreak4life
the only way that this universe was Created was by God Himself. [/font=Arial]
Thus god waved his magic wand and proclaimed,
"Hey Rocky, watch me pull a universe out of my hat."
And it was good.
I know, some of you skeptics out there are probably saying, "Where did god get the wand and the hat?" Simple if god can create a universe, then he can create a wand and a hat large enough to contain a universe. All magicians need props. I know, the bible doesn't mention a wand and hat, but I believe that god just misplaced them and forgot to tell the human authors about the props. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2002 : 18:46:17 [Permalink]
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Maybe I am remembering the hits, and forgetting the misses (I know there is a Psychology term for that  ,) but why does it seem that most links to creation science or religeous sites always have some sort of book or trinket to sell?
http://www.answersingenesis.org
http://www.drdino.com
http://www.creationscience.com
Plus the site mentioned in the thread above.
These are some sites I have pulled off Skeptic Friends in the last couple of days.
Sorry if this is off-topic. |
| Edited by - Terryt88 on 11/13/2002 21:32:48 |
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