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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2002 : 16:48:56
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On the radio I heard, that French president Jacques Chirac wants laws to ensure, that people behave during the playing of the national anthem.
Isn't that pushing it?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2002 : 19:07:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
On the radio I heard, that French president Jacques Chirac wants laws to ensure, that people behave during the playing of the national anthem.
Isn't that pushing it?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams
As a German I have always been a bit suspect of nationalism and patriotism in general. I always felt that this kind of thing could not go to far because it seemed 'wrong' from the start.
I mean what exactly are they based on? Being proud to be part of a group that most people do not actively choose but are born into? Being proud of achievements of a group that one personally had no part in? Being proud of the history of this group, even when viewed objectively the balance of those groups history is nothing to be proud of? Simply feeling superior to be one od Us instead of one of Them?
I have always felt that those that are to enthusiastic about such things, feel this way to balance out some other feeling of inadequacy that they harbor. "I might not be much, but at least I am not one of Them!"
The other thing that makes me feel uncomfortable with the whole concept, is that it is so easily abused. Anything associated with it is - just like religious teachings - beyond question and doubt. It would be 'wrong' to question something that has been labeled as patriotic.
But all that is just my opinion, maybe it is different for other people.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 00:15:10 [Permalink]
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As a citizen of a country I feel pride in its achievements.
(NOT being trashed by Belarus in the Olympic icehockey would have been nice. )
I don't base my nationalism on "My country right or wrong" or xenophobia and I would not accept to have it was forced up on me or if it included disrespect toward other cultures, countries or people.
(BTW Omega, what is your opinion of the latest Swe-Dan quarrel?)
I often find that people that who boast of their patriotism uses that as an excuse for lack of empathy or other mental functions. Politicians babbling about patriotism are usually trying to move peoples attention from their own incompetence and shortcomings.
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"
-- Oscar Wilde |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 04:28:17 [Permalink]
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As you're probably aware, every once in a while we have a movement to make desecration of the U.S. flag illegal.
Free speech was something that I was taught was a good idea. It seems to me that flag-burning should be something that would be part of every Independence day celebration to show that we love free speech more than any symbol.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 04:51:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Free speech was something that I was taught was a good idea.
To a limit, I agree. Not slander, scams etc.
quote:
It seems to me that flag-burning should be something that would be part of every Independence day celebration to show that we love free speech more than any symbol.
All that is and should be legal is not necessarily nice or decent. A free citizen should have the right to annoy and anger other people, but has to accept that people will get annoyed, angry or sad and that they will act accordingly (within the law).
quote:
As you're probably aware, every once in a while we have a movement to make desecration of the U.S. flag illegal.
Result: Flag burning is much more amusing for the people doing such things.
"God-as revealed in his book of edicts and narratives is practically an idiot. He has nothing to say that any sensible person should want to listen to."
-- Johann Most
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Mr. Spock
Skeptic Friend
USA
99 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 04:55:43 [Permalink]
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I have always had grave reservations about nationalism, and the post 9/11 furor in the US has only heightened my uneasiness. Lars has aptly summarized my feelings about nationalism, so I won't repeat them.
Truly, I admire the accomplishments of many outstanding US citizens, past and present.(notice that I didn't say "Americans." America is two large continents containing many countries. The fact that we call ourselves Americans, as if we were the only Americans that matter, is an example of the US arrogance that rightlfully pisses off the rest of the world). I am also aware of the fact that, however imperfectly practiced, our values of freedom, democracy, etc. are worth fighting for, and must be preserved. Objectively speaking, out nation is probably no greater than any other, we just happen to be the richest and most powerful. Yet I realize and appreciate the fact that I probably wouldn't have the advantages I have if I didn't happen to be born here.
Hence I'm cautiously patriotic, which is different from being nationalistic. I forget who said "real patriots ask questions," but they were correct. Blind patriotism is exactly like blind faith. The message is the same in either instance: Turn off your brain, this is what you are supposed to believe; fall in line with the rest of the herd. Those who don't are probably heathens/commmies/terrorist sympathizers, etc.
The problem is that this type of sentiment always weakens a nation in the long run. It makes the population suckers for opportunists(people are still selling cars, burgers and beer with the patriotic sales pitch in the US. It's sickening)and makes us blind to our own internal weaknesses, such as extremist dogma that actively seeks to subvert the freedoms of which we are so proud. It happened during the height of the cold war and it is happening again now.
"The amount of noise which anyone can bear stands in inverse proportion to his mental capacity." --Schopenhauer |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 05:44:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
(people are still selling cars, burgers and beer with the patriotic sales pitch in the US. It's sickening) [Mr. Spock]
To my dying day, I'll NEVER understand the connection between the U.S. celebration of Memorial Day and buying furniture. Every damn furniture store in the country harps about their glorious Memorial Day deals as if it was your patriotic duty to buy a dining room set on the same day we honor our war dead.
*heavy sigh*
(:raig |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 06:33:11 [Permalink]
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Getting angry and annoyed is something that people do to amuse themselves as well.
quote:
Flag burning is much more amusing for the people doing such things.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2002 : 06:53:02 [Permalink]
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Mr. Spock,
While I agree with you and Lars on every other point, I don't think you need to beat your breast over the fact that U.S. citizens refer to themselves as "Americans". The fact is, the United States of America is the only country that includes the word "America" in its official name. Therefore it's perfectly legitimate for us to refer to ourselves as "Americans".
Of course, two continents also include the word "America" in their names. But most people tend to identify themselves first by nation (even those of us who question the whole idea of nationalism). How many times have you met a German who describes herself primarily as European?
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2002 : 10:06:55 [Permalink]
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Starman> “As a citizen of a country I feel pride in its achievements.”
Why? Do you take responsibility for the same countrys wrong-doings?
What quarrel? There's nothing but soccer on TV :/, so if a new war broke out over Skåne I missed it! :)
Free speech to a limit? Wasn't it Voltaire who once said ”I diasgree with you, but I'll to my death defend your right to say it.”?
That's a tough question. On one hand I think free speech is a fundamental right. On the other hand I kinda think the neo-nazis had their say. You probably know we have racism laws here in DK.
They're of course meant to protect the immigrants and refugees from slander, but what will be next?
Mr. Spock> Just a curious question. If the US is the richest nation in the world, why is the percentage of poor people so high? If you look at the per capita GDP:
Switzerland $38.000
Japan $37.000
Denmark $27.000
U.S. $26.000
Germany $25.000
(U.S. Department of Commerce 1996, 835)
I think we in the West, usually like it very much where we're born and grew up. The culture and language is familiar, this is where our friends and family lives. I, for one, have no intention of moving anywhere else.
But I understand people from third-world countries that stand in line to get to the “rich” part of the world.
I suppose "Amerians" sound better than "USAns" :D
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2002 : 10:12:33 [Permalink]
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I like to use the term "US'ers," but it does sound awkward. It sounds less arrogant than Americans. Politicians like to use the phrase "the American people want" this or that, or the more famous "MY FELLOW AMERICANS" when they want to impose their will on the citizens of the U.S.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 05/29/2002 07:36:17 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 06:23:48 [Permalink]
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I just found this relevant quote and decided to add this here:
Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.
-- Albert Einstein
I think that it is rather ironic, considering the different countries ranging from Germany, Austria and America to Israel that now claim 'ownership' to him.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 17:53:39 [Permalink]
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Personally I love the United States without reserve or apology. I bless the day my Da decided to become a 'real New York artist' and loaded me on that Super G Constellation for the States.
It does surprise me, though, how many Europeans obsess about the US. 'If it's the richest nation in the world why is there so much poverty' ' Nationalism is wrong but the personal income of the citizens of my country is higher than Americans, nah nah a boo boo.'
The topic of Europe almost never comes up around here unless someone is vacationing in Tuscany or the South of France. I can't ever remember Denmark even arising in polite conversation.
We do have a pastry called a Danish that we eat at breakfast, a honey coated piece of flat bread with a daub of jelly or cheese in the middle. They are wonderful with coffee, wish I had one now.
Oh yeah, there was a furniture style called Danish modern that was popular some decades back. Sort of a Shaker Style without the craftsmanship but with plywood. That was attractive.
So is it nice over there? Are you having a good time? Why do you trouble your heads with the United States instead of just enjoying what you have?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 18:10:20 [Permalink]
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I have a dual feeling towards nationalism. It does have a very dark side. It would not really even bother me that there was just the world and not nations. If it could work and my big fear there is that the ruling class would only be corporations...not that they do not have too little power now.
In favour of nationalism is I think it is easier for a region or people to have their collective voice heard.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 21:29:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Personally I love the United States without reserve or apology. I bless the day my Da decided to become a 'real New York artist' and loaded me on that Super G Constellation for the States.
Such unconditional love is easily abused. Don't you fear that someone might use your feelings of pride against you? Don't you consider that you might reach a point someday, where you would have to apoglize for being American, or is it that in your eyes your country could never do anything wrong?
quote:
It does surprise me, though, how many Europeans obsess about the US. 'If it's the richest nation in the world why is there so much poverty' ' Nationalism is wrong but the personal income of the citizens of my country is higher than Americans, nah nah a boo boo.'
It is hardly a suprise that the superiority of the US breeds feelings of jealousy. The faults of someone who is percieved as superior get much more attention to balance out own feelings of inferiority. The attitude of Americans about such things does not help either. It should not suprise that every statement of superiority by Americans is taken under very close scrutiny in hope of proving it wrong.
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The topic of Europe almost never comes up around here unless someone is vacationing in Tuscany or the South of France. I can't ever remember Denmark even arising in polite conversation.
Excuse me if am wrong, but one could get the impression here that you consider ignorance and disinterest about the rest of the world outside the US a thing to be proud of.
I have to adimt that Denamrk apears to be unereprsented in the news here, too, compared to our other neighbors. And it most often comes up within in the context of tourism in polite conversation.
But look at it this way: No news are good news. When was the last time you heared anything bad about Denmark?
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 21:37:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a dual feeling towards nationalism. It does have a very dark side. It would not really even bother me that there was just the world and not nations. If it could work and my big fear there is that the ruling class would only be corporations...not that they do not have too little power now.
Corporations do seem to profit from the division of the world more then they are hurt by it.
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In favour of nationalism is I think it is easier for a region or people to have their collective voice heard.
Yes, but whose voice is it really, that you are hearing there and what is it saying? Does what the voice sais really represent what the majority of the individuals are thinking?
And if the voice of the people calls for thermonuclear war as it does in Pakistan and India right now, would it not have been better if it shut up?
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