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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 05/30/2002 : 03:44:29 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure why genealogy is relevant, but since it was brought up, my mother is into it, and she tells me that her family didn't come on the Mayflower, but the next ship. Our family has married into Ben Franklin's family, John Alden's family, and I don't remember how many greats I should put in front of the grandfather, but my great great grandfather was part of the Boston Tea Party and an officer in the military. My father's family probably came during the Potato Famine in Ireland, but she can't find much info on his family.
I'm not sure what someone means when they say they "love" their country without reserve or apology. I suppose the Nazis said the same thing, I don't know. There are many things to be said for the government of the United States, the geography of the United States, and even a lot of the people of the United States. To say that I "love" Billy Graham or George Bush would be true, but in a different way than I love, say, peanut butter or Billy Joel. I don't wish Billy Graham any harm, and I "love" him in the sense that I wish him good health, and I wish that he'd grow up and that he'd get out of whatever stupor he's in and take his followers with him. "Love" is such a vague word.
Without apology? I don't apologize for the United States. I don't own it, or run it. I have very little influence on the government or most of the business that goes on. The "United States" isn't just one thing to hold under your arm and take to kindergarten with you and say that you love.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 05:35:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't you consider that you might reach a point someday, where you would have to apoglize for being American, or is it that in your eyes your country could never do anything wrong?
I can't imagine any scenario where any person would ever need to apologize simply for being a citizen of a certain country.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 05/30/2002 20:42:51 |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 07:09:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
And if the voice of the people calls for thermonuclear war as it does in Pakistan and India right now, would it not have been better if it shut up?
Or better to educate it so that it's less likely to make such a poor decision.
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 07:13:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
I can't imagine any scenario where any person would ever need to apologize sipmly for being a citizen of a certain country.
Agreed, although I'm willing to bet that most Germans felt a strong compunction to do so in the years immediately following WWII.
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 07:17:59 [Permalink]
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Maybe, but I think one can really only apologize for things that one did or didn't do as an individual.
If these people are terrible dictators, then it behooves us to take better care of their subjects, don't you think? As in the case of Japan, we're being told that these people were being forced to be cannon fodder. Wouldn't it have been better to recognize that and try to minimize the number of deaths of "innocent" people? We see that in Iraq, where U.S. policy makes life harder for those who are captives of a brutal government already. Wouldn't it be wiser to make their lives easier, not harder?
quote:
Agreed, although I'm willing to bet that most Germans felt a strong compunction to do so in the years immediately following WWII.
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily."
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 08:49:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Don't you consider that you might reach a point someday, where you would have to apoglize for being American, or is it that in your eyes your country could never do anything wrong?
I can't imagine any scenario where any person would ever need to apologize sipmly for being a citizen of a certain country.
Try traveling to Israel with a German passport and that attitude.
And just because you were not born until long after WW2 and the Germany you are a citizen of is a different country then the one during WW2 does not mean that everyone considers you guilt less.
The idea that nationalism and patriotism are not necessarily a bad thing did not appear here in Germany until rather recently.
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opus
Skeptic Friend
Canada
50 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 08:52:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Corporations do seem to profit from the division of the world more then they are hurt by it.
To a point I agree. Their power and influence has grown and I do not think it is an accident that it mirrors the economic union in Europe. quote:
Yes, but whose voice is it really, that you are hearing there and what is it saying? Does what the voice sais really represent what the majority of the individuals are thinking?
And if the voice of the people calls for thermonuclear war as it does in Pakistan and India right now, would it not have been better if it shut up?
It is my experience in places like Pakistan and India there is a great deal of difference in what you ask for in public and what you ask for in privite. It is no difference than say in the United States when after the 11 September George Bush got such high aproval ratings. Under threat you rally together. I do not think that is intrinsically wrong.
The real issue is how do small groups get heard and treated fairly. The large the organisation the harder it seems to be to live with the smaller subsections.
I lived in Switzerland for a time and their solution was to keep all the subsections small.
At any rate I concider myself a nationalist. At the more fervent end in Canadian terms. Canada being Canada there is not so much of an ethnic component to our nationalism. Not to say there are not some big problems in that area. while living in Europe I was surprised at how much racism still exists there. Maybe, in a European context nationalism is something to be minimised?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 08:54:27 [Permalink]
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Such unconditional love is easily abused. Don't you fear that someone might use your feelings of pride against you?
I can see how you might feel that way. Reminds me of myself after my first marriage to She Whose Name Must Not Be Mentioned (if you do mention it darkness fills the land and birds drop from the sky--very untidy). S.W.N.M.N.B.M. had many similarities to the gentleman who threw you off nationalism (no, not the Charlie Chaplain moustache)
Don't you consider that you might reach a point someday, where you would have to apoglize for being American, or is it that in your eyes your country could never do anything wrong?
When I say 'without apology' I'm talking about not offering an apology for my own feelings. I'm not quite pretentious enough (not yet, I am trying though) to apologize for other people.
Your comments lead me to believe that you aren't a parent. You do not withhold your love for your kids because maybe in the future, they might do something wrong. Nor does the love you feel for them blind you to their blarney. It does make you want to protect them--even, if needs be, from themselves.
So is the love I feel for the USA. There is nothing blind about it.
Excuse me if am wrong, but one could get the impression here that you consider ignorance and disinterest about the rest of the world outside the US a thing to be proud of.
There's no ignorance but there is lack of interest. This is not a matter of pride, just of circumstance.
If the smaller countries of Europe have better education and a higher standard of living and less crime, etc., etc., I'm happy for them. I wish them the very best.
We here in the US don't seem to have the compulsive need to compare ourselves to Europe that so many Europeans I've run across seem to feel about the US. I just found it amusing that this thread should have the sub-theme of 'Nationalism is bad but my country is better than the USA.' There seems to be more national pride running around here than some would care to admit. Personally, I think it is a good thing. But it is a sign of emotional maturity not to build yourself up by tearing someone else down.
When was the last time you heared anything bad about Denmark?
Can't say that I've ever heard a bad thing about the place at all.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 09:02:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Maybe, but I think one can really only apologize for things that one did or didn't do as an individual.
If these people are terrible dictators, then it behooves us to take better care of their subjects, don't you think? As in the case of Japan, we're being told that these people were being forced to be cannon fodder. Wouldn't it have been better to recognize that and try to minimize the number of deaths of "innocent" people? We see that in Iraq, where U.S. policy makes life harder for those who are captives of a brutal government already. Wouldn't it be wiser to make their lives easier, not harder?
I don't really know about Iraq, since it is rather hard to get much unbiased information about the civillian population.
I do know about Nazi-Germany, East-Germany and a bit about WW2 Japan.
People afterwards always make it look like there was a small group of those in power, who held the entire population hostage. They make it look like there about a dozend criminals and and a population of victims who only went along with it out of fear of death.
That was not the case in any of the dictatorships I know about, wich makes me doubt that it is the case in Iraq.
On the other hand, I have to say that I don't see any reason to invade or free Iraq right now. It is not like he is any worse or different then any number of countries that the US currently is on very good terms with.
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 11:16:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Don't you consider that you might reach a point someday, where you would have to apoglize for being American, or is it that in your eyes your country could never do anything wrong?
I can't imagine any scenario where any person would ever need to apologize sipmly for being a citizen of a certain country.
Try traveling to Israel with a German passport and that attitude.
Well, of course, I understand that others would feel that one should apologize simply for being a citizen of a country that they have/had a beef with, but this in no way says that they are at all justified in asking for an apology.
Gorgo said:
quote:
I think one can really only apologize for things that one did or didn't do as an individual.
Exactly.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 11:24:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Gorgo said:
quote:
I think one can really only apologize for things that one did or didn't do as an individual.
Exactly.
Well, that makes sense to me, too. But only if it works for bad things as well as good things. How can you take pride in accomplishments that you had no part in achieving, but deny all responsibility for the bad things that your country has done?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 12:05:23 [Permalink]
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I agree, unless there's a cash reward involved.
quote:
Well, that makes sense to me, too. But only if it works for bad things as well as good things.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Omega
Skeptic Friend
Denmark
164 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 17:57:29 [Permalink]
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Slater> It surprises me, how many Americans are obsessed with turning questions and debate into “America-bashing.”
“nah nah a boo boo”???? You just showed a complete lack of understanding of the point i was trying to make. If you always count the hits and forget the misses, I can see why your love can be ”unreserved”, and the acceptance of anything is not exactly skeptical, is it?
I don't know what the point about Europe being a topic in discussion is. Here we discuss everything geographically from Japan to Kashmir, Egypt to Greenland, the US to Ireland.
Denmark is so tiny, most Americans I've talked to doesn't even know where it is. It doesn't have agencies that remove democratically elected presidents, nor does it engage in wars around the world with motives that may sometimes be debatable. That's just because it's so small I guess. I don't really care, I'm not a nationalist. I have a hard time seeing, why my heart should swell at the sight of a fluttering Danish flag. I get to vote once every four years, the government occationally engages in policies I disagree with, and if I think something is wrong, I'll voice my opinion. What nation engages in the wrong-doing is not really the biggest issue. The wrong-doing is.
” So is it nice over there? Are you having a good time? Why do you trouble your heads with the United States instead of just enjoying what you have?”
There are good things and there are bad things, like everywhere else. I don't trouble myself with the USA. I trouble my head with American foreign policies from time to time.
” Personally I love the United States without reserve or apology.” How does that differ from a religion? 'Personally I love God without reserve and apology.'
Opus> Is there such a thing as a ”collective voice”? There are many polls all over the world to be sure, but they're so easily manipulated that the same geo-group can both love and hate tomatoes depending on the questions asked.
Governments are the ”voice of the people”. I'd have no clue how to call up the leaders of Pakistan and India and tell them to settle down and talk things over.
Lars_H> I can tell you why! :) There's been a huge scandal with a mayor who's part of the current ruling party. After that the prime minister and cabinet have been strangely absent even from our own news.
TD> If one can only apologise for one's own actions, how can one take pride in something not done by oneself?
"All it takes to fly is to fling yourself at the ground... and miss."
- Douglas Adams |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 19:41:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
It surprises me, how many Americans are obsessed with turning questions and debate into “America-bashing.”
My goodness how could I have ever thought that was America bashing? Silly me.
I'm sorry that you are incapable of loving something without losing your judgement. If love to you means being a mindless zombie then I guess I don't know what love is.
And I'm sorry that you are so ambivalent about your homeland. You might try finding a place you like better. I did and it was the best thing I've ever done.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2002 : 20:42:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
How can you take pride in accomplishments that you had no part in achieving, but deny all responsibility for the bad things that your country has done?
quote:
TD> If one can only apologise for one's own actions, how can one take pride in something not done by oneself?
When one apologize for something, one is saying that one is personally responsible for doing something wrong.
When one feels "pride" in their country, it is for being a part of a group that shares collective ideals.
If I claim to be proud to be an American for certain things that the government has done, I wouldn't be claiming any personal credit for their actions, nor would I expect to be thought of any better simply for being an American.
It's the same as me being proud to be a skeptic. When I read an article in a skeptical publication, and I am left simply saying "wow!", I feel proud to be a skeptic.
I don't see any conflict.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 05/30/2002 20:43:53 |
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