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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2001 : 01:13:48
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I was standing by the barbeque last night having a discussion with my friends, one of whom is from southeastern Idaho and started kvetching about Mormons, and their socio-economic domination of her area. The word "cult" was used, so I opened my fool mouth and said, "the main difference between a cult and a religion is size."
This, of course, sparked a debate which had some interesting ideas presented. The most interesting came from one of my friends, who is a quasi-catholic (he goes to church most sundays and tries to be a good person). He pointed out that his kind don't exist in cults: they require fanatical devotion. Another friend said that cults don't have a socially accepted moral code, like polygamy for mormons. I responded with the standard "crusades" argument (I couldn't think of anything better at the time) to illustrate that the Christians were not altogether moral, either.
My question is: what do you think is the main difference between a cult and a religion?
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 01:58:17 [Permalink]
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Webster's.....
cult....
1 a) a system of religious worship or ritual b)a quasi-religious group, often living in a colony, with a charismatic leader who indoctrinates members with unorthodox or extremist views, practices, or beliefs.
2 a) devoted attachment to, or extravagant admiration for, a person, principle, or lifestyle, esp. when regarded as a fad.
Personally?,.....I slump 'em all in one big pile - religionist/cultist both require believing in bizarre events, occurances, - the unproveable.
Think the term cult is used for a matter of catagorizing, with a undefined hint of condescension attached,...you know, holier than thou attitude.
Liked your quick answer with the size bit, Boron.
Your catholic friends comment about cults require fanatical devotion?, - think he just described every other fundie around!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 02:07:16 [Permalink]
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Not much difference between cults and religions. They both want blind devotion to their doctrine, they both rely on the charismatic performance of either the *leader* or priest, rabbi, minister, etc and they both want all your money.
The only difference, religions are acceptable and cults are not. But, all religions started as cults of one sort or another. Look at the twelve that followed the supposed Christ character. A charismatic fellow, who got others to follow his bizzar teachings of a heaven and hell, to which all are condemned unless they give blind devotion to him and his father. Leave your families behind and follow me to the glory of god. Hmmm, kinda sounds cultish to me...
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 02:48:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
My question is: what do you think is the main difference between a cult and a religion?
This isn't exactly an answer to your question but, as a side note, if someone has the kind of personality that needs to be directed by someone else, irrationally or rationally why bother worrying about it.
Some people are not as evolved!
I'd say a cult is more like not having free will or being deceived into joining. In a main stream religion one usually is free to come and go, if you don't show up at church one time, no one is going to kid nap you and drag you back. |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 03:20:55 [Permalink]
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There are too damn many definations of the word cult for it to be of any real use.
Have a look here for a very good document with some discussion and a list of 9 different definitions (could be said to be 8 as there are two very similar ones) of the word cult.
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 07:17:39 [Permalink]
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A few things that distinquish a cult from the slightly less destructive religions.
1) Mystical Leadership - Either the leader is considered exeptionaly spiritual, having supernatural powers, or a direct line from god. IN non-religious cults the leader is considered a genious or visionary.
2) Totalitarianism - Everyone who is not with them is against them. Generaly foster an Us vs. Them view on the members, and you wouldn't want them to win do you? We're trying to save the world, if you don't support us then your against saveing the world.
3) Environmental Control - Controlling the member's access to information. This can be from isolated camps or simply discouraging contact with non-members. Members also end up with a self-censoring thinking. They simply do not listen to anyone who says anything bad against their organization.
4) Loading the Language - Shades of 1984, creating new words or redefining old ones. This makes speaking to a member difficult and helps the isolation. It also works to redirect how the person thinks.
5) Secrecy - usualy the group is secretive about what it actualy teaches. You don't find out the whole 'divine truth' until you have been proven worthy (brainwashed enough).
Now, do Mormons fit this? The organization was founded by John Smith who recieved gold plates written in aincient egyptian from an angle. He was the only one who could translate them, and after he died they were no where to be found. Actualy nobody saw them when he was alive either.
When they first moved to Utah migth have been for that environment control. As for secrecy, yes there is a bunch of that. They usualy don't talk about their 'magic underwear' with others, or that god lives on the planet Kolob. Got a friend who was raised Mormon and she didn't even know about the Kolob part until I told her. Can see more at:
http://www.nowscape.com/mormons1.htm
I don't realy know enough about the state of their church to be able to say how cult-like they currently are. They have changed their teachings from when they started, becomeing less cult-like, but there might still be a bit of the old ways in there.
Now scientology is my specialty. They are as bad as ever, and will not change.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 10:36:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
This isn't exactly an answer to your question but, as a side note, if someone has the kind of personality that needs to be directed by someone else, irrationally or rationally why bother worrying about it.
Why worry? Because they are dangerous, that's why. For instance--the word FAGGOT means a bundle of sticks or twigs that you use to make a nice roaring fire. Now you might notice that at least one of these cults has a website that says that god hates these twigs. Get it Snake? They make fires with them. Just because it hasn't happened in the last 60 years doesn't mean that it'll never happen again.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 10:47:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
...one of my friends, who is a quasi-catholic ... pointed out that his kind don't exist in cults: they require fanatical devotion.
Hank Hanagraph always makes it a point to mention that he, unlike most orthodox khristian leaders, does not consider the Roman Catholic Church to be a cult. Although they have many, according to him, "cultic" practices.
I'm not sure if this gets filed under "Eye of the beholder" or "pot calling the kettle..."
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Bradley
Skeptic Friend
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 10:54:32 [Permalink]
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"Cult" is merely a term of opprobrium that religionists use to place their competition in the worst possible light.
"Too much doubt is better than too much credulity."
-Robert Green Ingersoll (1833 - 1899) |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 13:55:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why worry? Because they are dangerous, that's why. For instance--the word FAGGOT means a bundle of sticks or twigs that you use to make a nice roaring fire. Now you might notice that at least one of these cults has a website that says that god hates these twigs. Get it Snake? They make fires with them. Just because it hasn't happened in the last 60 years doesn't mean that it'll never happen again.
Other then those people in Japan and the sciencetologists I haven't heard of any cult trying to actively kill anyone.
Christians are the one who have actually, really killed, abortion doctors. They ARE the ones to worry about. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 14:01:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
A few things that distinquish a cult from the slightly less destructive religions.
1) Mystical Leadership - Either the leader is considered exeptionaly spiritual, having supernatural powers, or a direct line from god. IN non-religious cults the leader is considered a genious or visionary.
But, but..... A short time ago I got to thinking why is the pope so important so I asked, on another questions and answer web site. Several people came back and said the same thing. I can't remember exactly but something about him being the direct line or descendant from god. So, does that mean they are a cult by definition? |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 14:13:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
But, but..... A short time ago I got to thinking why is the pope so important so I asked, on another questions and answer web site. Several people came back and said the same thing. I can't remember exactly but something about him being the direct line or descendant from god. So, does that mean they are a cult by definition?
What I gave was not realy a definition. There is no real clear cut between 'cult' and 'religion'. I just gave some, maybe you could call them symptoms or warning signs that a group is either a cult or has some tendencies towards that.
While some do consider the catholic church a cult, I wouldn't since they have no 'secret teachings'. Members can join or leave as they please. They don't foster the Us vs. Them attitude. Sure they've got their fanatics, but those people were probably already prone to fanaticism. Real cults like Sceintology work hard to alter your thinking and personality, trying to make you into a fanatic, or at least pawn.
IMO the difference is a matter of the level of abuse, coersion, and control used on members.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2001 : 16:15:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I gave was not realy a definition. There is no real clear cut between 'cult' and 'religion'. I just gave some, maybe you could call them symptoms or warning signs that a group is either a cult or has some tendencies towards that.
IMO the difference is a matter of the level of abuse, coersion, and control used on members.
I C. I think I was looking at Randys post with the Websters on there and then the way you put on 1, 2, 3, I was thinking definition. Whatever. 
I tend to agree with you about the degree of coersion also. Things are are not Black and White, IMO. |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2001 : 17:36:37 [Permalink]
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......just in from another MB. FUNNY!
(never cared for the group, but I like the style here!)
Message from sender:
ROTFL! Read Simmon's last quote. This'll make the 700 Club thrilled!
News Article: Simmons offers one last Kiss
NEW YORK (Variety) - Few bands have as devoted a fan base
as Kiss. But Kiss bassist and mouthpiece Gene Simmons is now
asking fans to take their loyalty to a new place: the grave.
Ensconced in a private room at Gotham's Jacob Javits Center
for the recent Licensing 2001 confab, Simmons showed off what
he considers to be the ultimate piece of music memorabilia -- a
life-size, fully functional "Kiss Forever" coffin.
Retailing for around $4,000, the coffin sports the band's
logo, a panoramic graphic of the crowd at a Kiss show and, of
course, the faces of the four founding members in full
"Destroyer"-era face makeup.
Simmons foresees strong demand from hardcore fans for the
Kiss casket, and not just those headed to rock 'n' roll heaven.
Indeed, the prototype set up in the rocker's suite doubled as a
cooler, full of chilled soda and Budweiser.
"We figured, why not use it while you're alive?" he says.
"For a guy that's home watching the game in his living room, he
could just reach over and grab a cold one."
The "Kiss Forever" coffin is only the latest offering from
a merchandising empire that Simmons values at north of $500
million. The band's imprint appears on products ranging from
wine and bubblegum to mobile phones. But the entrepreneurial
rocker sees no reason to stop at the hereafter.
"Why not invent our own religion?" Simmons volunteers. "We
could call it 'Kiss-tianity."'
Reuters/Variety
(if this really took off, considering their broad fan-base, would this be a cult or a religion?) :-D
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Tiptup
Skeptic Friend
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 07:58:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
My question is: what do you think is the main difference between a cult and a religion?
Maybe Slater will correct me on this, but I was under the impression that the word cult had a very simple meaning unlike that confusing websters one. Basically a cult in my mind is an illegitimate sect within or broken off from a standard religion. The illegitimate status comes when the movement rejects a fundamental belief within the source religion. |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2001 : 08:58:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Basically a cult in my mind is an illegitimate sect within or broken off from a standard religion. The illegitimate status comes when the movement rejects a fundamental belief within the source religion.
If you take it that way then just about every religion is a cult. All of Christianity would be cults that branched off of Jewdism, which might have branched off of some even earlier religion that we don't know about.
So the only non-cults would be any new formed religions that did not branch off of something else. That would mean $cientology is not a cult?? I think there's a problem with that definition then.
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