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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2002 : 15:25:46
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"Beware of the fish people,
they are the true enemy."
—Frank Zappa,
I still can't get my mind around that drawing of a chicken that was being served up to us on another thread as a contemporary dragon/dinosaur.
What I'd like to discuss here is-- why do the fish people feel the need to lie?
They lie about dinosaurs, the age of the Earth, evolution and the separation of Church & State.
They lie when they call Evolution and atheism religions. And why defame something by calling it a religion when you are trying to promote the sale of your own religion?
They lie about what their magic book says, changing it's meaning at will.
They lie about the religious beliefs of great men.
I'm not using the word lie lightly here. They are not simply mistaken in these utterances because when they are corrected and given the actual facts they do not amend their thinking. Rather they make no reply but go on to the next person and repeat the original misinformation. So they knowingly give false information; they lie.
But the question is 'Why?' What can they possibly gain from winning an argument when they already know that they aren't telling the truth?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
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Mocker Wall
New Member
11 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2002 : 16:12:05 [Permalink]
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It's easier to believe in something that makes you feel good or special in some way rather than to face facts.
"Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he was nailed to the cross. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 18:25:24 [Permalink]
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But that's my point, or at least the point that I get lost at.
They can't actually believe what they are saying, they know that they aren't telling the truth. If they believed something there would be no need to lie.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 20:07:06 [Permalink]
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I think you are underestimating the human capacity for self delusion. All religions depend, to an extent, on this capacity. People involved in religion, are not just involved philisophically, but emotionally. Giving up such beliefs can be emotionally painful. It also mean surrendering a comforting crutch. Giving up religion means facing the reality of death. It mean facing the possibility that the bad guys aren't going to get their just deserts after all. So when religious people lie, they may know that what they are saying flies in the face of all evidence, but on an emotional level, they sincerely believe that they are speaking truth.
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 20:46:22 [Permalink]
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I think that among Christians or even Creationists those that lie and are aware that what they say are lies are in the minority. Even some of those that lie to defame others are not really aware that their belief is a lie. They can rationalize it as lieing for the truth.
I think that that most people who provide creationist and other true belivers with arguments knowing that they are wrong, don't do it for religious reasons, but for money and power.
Those are not just deluding themselves or lie for profit are very few in numbers. And they are highly overrepresentated on the internet.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 20:53:18 [Permalink]
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I don't think they're consciously lying - I think they are using Doublethink. They are extremely insular and - it's doublethink, that's what it is!
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!Go Wings!
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 21:21:46 [Permalink]
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The two most important words in social psychology: cognitive dissonance.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 21:50:47 [Permalink]
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Is cognitive dissonance related to the ideas expressed by the Newspeak words doublethink, blackwhite and crimestop?
(see the appendix to Nineteen Eighty-four for more on the meanings.)
Ford, there's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for Hamlet they've worked out. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2002 : 22:02:18 [Permalink]
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This is a double-plus-ungood topic and I will close it!
It seems that Dreamer is saying that the fundies are able to realize that they are wrong, but ignore the fact?
Sounds like what BB was trying to do.
Here's a bit on cognitive dissonance:
quote:
Dissonance.
Two cognitions are said to be dissonant if one cognition follows from the opposite of the other. Consider three examples. A segregationist white mother in Little Rock in 1956 decides to send her child to a newly integrated school. A man who believes in busing to achieve racial integration makes a speech opposing it. A child who dislikes chocolate ice cream purchases a chocolate icecream cone. In each of these situations, the cognitions about behavior follow, not from the actors' cognitions about their beliefs, but rather from their opposites. Dissonance is aroused in each case.
http://www.mindspring.com/~frudolph/lectures/SOC/soc1.htm
http://www.ithaca.edu/faculty/stephens/cdback.html
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!Go Wings!
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 02:15:37 [Permalink]
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Doublethink is right! I don't know if many of these people are even able to experience "cognitive dissonance"
From: http://www.raycomfort.com/Merchant2/graphics/books/revival/Revivals_Golden_Key.pdf
"We are the ones who are in transgression. It dawns on us that we are more than brazenly impudent in our accusations. We are guilty criminals standing before an unspeakably holy and gracious Judge, accusing Him of transgression. In light of God's holiness, it is hard to understand why He continues to let a sinful humanity such as us even draw another breath." p.187-188
The mark of a true thrall. I don't think he's capable of “cognitive dissonance”.
"Do you know of a skeptic who mocks God and His Word? Does he accuse God of crimes against humanity? Does he think that God is responsible for famines and wars that are fought in His name? Then
Don't be afraid to shut the accuser up under the Law; stop his mouth (Romans 1:19). Turn the wrath of the Law on him. Show him that he, not God, is guilty of the heinous crimes." p.208
OK, how many people ordered genocide (in the OT times. The modern examples like witch-burning etc. and inquisitions is what he's probably referring to up there, I guess, but since they (technically) weren't ordered by god as the OT stuff was, we can let them pass (the OT stuff though, did provide precedent!)
And the end of p 211-212 where he goes through on how to convert a sinner. Besides the moral contradiction of being judged unworthy by a being who's responsible for the atrocities on the OT (killing of women, children, etc). Look at how he says that none of us, most of whom wouldn't even concieve of such brutality deserve to be killed. So, it's a case of “no matter what god does, it's right", and no matter how little we “sin”, that is enough for us to suffer eternally! If that isn't doublethink, I don't know what is! see p 211-212
And then of course, there's Karl's comment:
quote:
4 ) Why would this god kill my friend's twin girls just days before they were to be born?
Who said God killed them? But, lets say he did decide to take them. How do you know that God didn't know they would grow up to be God haters just like you...so he brought them to himself prior to being polluted by the likes of you God bashers.
Now that's the most messed-up thing I've ever heard anyone say. By that logic, then all abortionists are heroes, because they take babies lives before they can sin, and instead of only some of the potential people getting into heaven while the others go into hell, they ALL go into heaven. By the way, Karl at one point asks:
quote:
Why are you a bigot?
Kacey
Well, Karl, when you look at the statement you made above, who really is the bigot?
quote:
You're the Queen BITCH Xev...do what you want.
Kacey
I've read the end of the bible....the Christians win
isn't he the one who's complaining about ad-hom attacks?! Another person who has no "cognitive dissonance"
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 05:44:22 [Permalink]
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I doubt that any of those true believers suffer from cognitive dissonance. The way I understand it dissonance only occurs if you are on some level aware that some of your pieces of knowledge/opinion are mutually exclusive or when you have conflicting desires. The cognitive dissonance is what force us to make a choice or reevaluate our opinions.
True believers are good at not questioning and being ignorant about logic. A contradiction that seems glaringly obvious to you or me might not be noticed by them.
If you really think about it none of us take all of our ideas to the logical conclusion. This is a good thing if we were really consequent to the extreme we would sooner or later and up very dead. So I guess that the inconsequence that those people display is just a extreme version of survival adaption that is present in all of us to some degree.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 09:08:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
True believers are good at not questioning and being ignorant about logic.
I'm not actually referring to the sheep who just follow unquestioningly. Rather I'm talking about the out and out liars. The one who carve the "human foot prints" on dinosaur track, who fake 'ancient' artifacts, who already know that the 'Earth is not a closed system,' who put the drops of glycerin on the icons eyes, who poke holes in their own hands and feet. The deceitful and not the deceived.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 05/29/2002 09:09:44 |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 09:16:27 [Permalink]
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Well, they claim that they want everyone to go to Heaven. Maybe they really do think that hoaxes and lies are ok if they result in fooling people into becoming "saved".
Kinda like what your quote from Eusebius said a while back.
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Truth above pride and ego; truth above all |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 09:51:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
True believers are good at not questioning and being ignorant about logic.
I'm not actually referring to the sheep who just follow unquestioningly. Rather I'm talking about the out and out liars. The one who carve the "human foot prints" on dinosaur track, who fake 'ancient' artifacts, who already know that the 'Earth is not a closed system,' who put the drops of glycerin on the icons eyes, who poke holes in their own hands and feet. The deceitful and not the deceived.
But that is the true beauty of the true believer: That he can deceive others and himself at the same time. Many of them are so convinced of the Truth that they think that lieing in its favor is permissable and in no way an admission of weakness.
Some people might easily convince themselves that they are doing gods work when they are faking a miracle.
If they are not fooling themselves then they are profiting from it most of the time. If you are gaining money, power or a sense of selfworth out of decieving others, you might still hold some vestiges of the faith you are trying to con other into yourself as a sort of rationalization.
If you repeat your lies often enough to convince others you might end up believing them yourself and the knowledge that you carved the footprint yourself will take a backseat in the face of the moral indignation that those skeptics won't believe you despite your proof.
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 11:07:01 [Permalink]
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""Do you know of a skeptic who mocks God and His Word? Does he accuse God of crimes against humanity? Does he think that God is responsible for famines and wars that are fought in His name? Then
Don't be afraid to shut the accuser up under the Law; stop his mouth (Romans 1:19). Turn the wrath of the Law on him. Show him that he, not God, is guilty of the heinous crimes." p.208"
Is that a threat? Methinks Cthulhu would not appreciate such.
Slater:
quote:
I'm not actually referring to the sheep who just follow unquestioningly. Rather I'm talking about the out and out liars. The one who carve the "human foot prints" on dinosaur track, who fake 'ancient' artifacts, who already know that the 'Earth is not a closed system,' who put the drops of glycerin on the icons eyes, who poke holes in their own hands and feet. The deceitful and not the deceived.
Methinks you need to re-read '1984'. A practitioner of doublethink can easily lie and believe his own lie.
Many miracles were created only for economic gain, but many of the decievers actually believed in their miracles. Or so I have read.
Those of us who are used to logical thinking, to recognizing fallacies and logical contradictions, have a hard time understanding these things. But I think they are sincere, in a twisted way.
It is as if the will to believe has twisted their minds. I've been told, and so it says in their Bible, that faith has to be attempted. They actively strive for faith! How can we, as skeptics, really understand the way they think?
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!Go Wings!
- Cthulhu Saves! - |
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Mocker Wall
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2002 : 15:25:13 [Permalink]
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"I'm not actually referring to the sheep who just follow unquestioningly. Rather I'm talking about the out and out liars."
It's called "Lyin' for Jesus" or "The ends justifies the means". It dosen't matter how you maintain the flock, only that you do.
"Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he was nailed to the cross. |
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