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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2002 : 14:10:19 [Permalink]
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You would have a case if smoking were illegal but since it's not I just don't see why an owner of a business can't set their own rules. If they want smoking they should be able to provide space for it at their business. You are saying you not only feel you have no choice about going into a particular business but you also want to legislate the choices for people at places you will never go to?? Come on!
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 15:41:25 [Permalink]
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You would have a case if smoking were illegal but since it's not...
But that's the point. It is illegal to smoke in a bar in CA.
... I just don't see why an owner of a business can't set their own rules.
Because it's part of the health code. Business owners don't get to make up their own health codes (no matter what McDonalds might claim)
If they want smoking they should be able to provide space for it at their business.
That would knowlingly jeopardize the health of their employees. That is against the law here.
There is a space provided though--outside in the open air. No one is forbidding you to smoke, just take it outside where you wont bother so many people.
You are saying you not only feel you have no choice about going into a particular business but you also want to legislate the choices for people at places you will never go to??
You are saying that because some woman works as a waitress to pay her bills she deserves to be exposed to carcinogens? Yes, I am saying that there should be health codes. I think they are a fine idea.
The way interpersonal relationships work is through mutual consent. Without it sex becomes rape, vacations become kidnappings, decorating becomes vandalism...etc. You get my point. Smoking takes away mutual consent. You smoke, everybody around you smokes whether they want to or not. There was a time, long past, when manners dictated that a smoker ask permission before they lite up. This law in CA is the rest of us saying "yes, we do mind if you smoke." Expect a similar law in the state you live in soon.
<img src="/forum/images/Abomb1.gif" border=0>@tomic<img src="/forum/images/Abomb1.gif" border=0>
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 17:00:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
That would knowlingly jeopardize the health of their employees. That is against the law here.
There is a space provided though--outside in the open air. No one is forbidding you to smoke, just take it outside where you wont bother so many people.
But smoking was the status quo and people still sought employment at businesses that allowed smoking. To get a job at a place where youy know people will smoke and then bitch about it is ridiculous. Maybe they should have gotten an outside job. This law also bans someone from opening a smoking only bar. It's just wrong, in my opinion, for people to legislate what other people do when there are plenty of options and for things that don't even apply to them.
Oh, and you suggested smokers go outside but you complained about that too if you scroll up 
Why shouldn't someone be able to open a smoking only bar? Alcohol is also bad for you. Perhaps all the people that don't drink should vote to make bars illegal too.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 18:14:11 [Permalink]
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But smoking was the status quo and people still sought employment at businesses that allowed smoking.
Yes and it was disgusting. That's why we stopped putting up with things like that. But was smoking ever the status quo? A majority of the population are not -and never were-smokers.
To get a job at a place where youy know people will smoke and then bitch about it is ridiculous.
No need to bitch about it any more. The laws have been passed. To bitch that you can't annoy other people and put their health at risk any more is ridiculous.
Maybe they should have gotten an outside job.
Or maybe their employers should provide safe working conditions as required by law.
This law also bans someone from opening a smoking only bar.
Yeah, it's a health code-you don't get a choice. Nor should you.
You don't get the choice to open a place where there are rats in the kitchen, nor can you open one where the employees never wash their hands when leaving the rest room. These health codes are for the protection of the employees and the public, not to cater to the whims of the owners and some addicts.
It's just wrong, in my opinion, for people to legislate what other people do when there are plenty of options and for things that don't even apply to them.
Too bad "Poppies" on Seinfeld is fictitious you might have liked it.
Oh, and you suggested smokers go outside but you complained about that too if you scroll up That's right. My personal suggestion for handling the smoking problem involved the use of marlin bats and brass knuckles but the State of California went with a more middle of the road solution to the problem (the wimps). In CA you can smoke on the street (for the present.)
Why shouldn't someone be able to open a smoking only bar?
Because it's a public health risk.
If you want to smoke in your own home, never wash you hands and use water bugs in your home cookie recipes you can. Just so long as you don't involve the public. Then it comes under the jurisdiction of the state and you must follow the health codes.
Alcohol is also bad for you.
Only if YOU--YOURSELF drink it. Not if the person sitting at the next table drinks it. Not if you mix drinks. Not if you carry tray after tray of them. It will have no effect on you unless you decide that you are going to drink it.
As for the harm that others might do to you when they are under the influence there are already laws concerning them.
Perhaps all the people that don't drink should vote to make bars illegal too.
If these non drinkers had booze poured down their throats, over their clothes and on their hair every time someone in the same room as they took a drink they would have every right to do something to stop it.
When you smoke you force everyone around you to smoke too. Since you have involved them, they have every right to demand that you not smoke around them. Since manners and common decency didn't prevail they were forced to have laws past.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 18:31:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Only if YOU--YOURSELF drink it. Not if the person sitting at the next table drinks it. Not if you mix drinks. Not if you carry tray after tray of them. It will have no effect on you unless you decide that you are going to drink it.
As for the harm that others might do to you when they are under the influence there are already laws concerning them.
quote:
Perhaps all the people that don't drink should vote to make bars illegal too.
If these non drinkers had booze poured down their throats, over their clothes and on their hair every time someone in the same room as they took a drink they would have every right to do something to stop it.
When you smoke you force everyone around you to smoke too. Since you have involved them, they have every right to demand that you not smoke around them. Since manners and common decency didn't prevail they were forced to have laws past.
Thank you for helping make my case for a smokers only bar 
If the state passed a law saying that drinking is a public health risk then it would be against health codes as well and it would be pretty easy to make that case ie fighting, drunk driving, liver disease etc.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 20:12:25 [Permalink]
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Thank you for helping make my case for a smokers only bar
I don't see why you fixate on bars. Nothing spoils the taste of a nice glass of wine or a fine whiskey like the stench of smoke.
You can't smoke in resturants, buses, elevators, offices, stores, trains, airports etc, etc. It's just not acceptable behavior.
If the state passed a law saying that drinking is a public health risk then it would be against health codes as well and it would be pretty easy to make that case ie fighting, drunk driving, liver disease etc.
That's right.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 20:19:12 [Permalink]
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Gee Slater, I feel that you might be holding back. Remind me to pick up some Nicorette if we every have occasion to meet.
Well, back to my trailer...
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2002 : 22:21:27 [Permalink]
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A marlin bat is only a very small bat not like a Louieville slugger or a crow bar.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 13:38:09 [Permalink]
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While I'm not as rabid as Slater, I agree with him. I suffered for years with a father that smoked. He never worried about driving all day with the windows up and butts piled in the ashtray. Smokers, like all junkies, fixate only on themselves and that next fix.
That's pretty much a working definition of anti-social.
Since that ground has been gone over- what about the pollution and environmental damage caused by smokers?
My example is the plethora of fires that have been started here in drought-ridden Colorado by cigarettes tossed out windows. All along I-25 there are patches of burned up land that were destroyed by discarded cigarettes. A chunk of an adjacent neighborhood to mine got torched after a cigarette was pitched out a window.
Before the cries of: "oh I never do that", be honest, even if YOU don't, a walk along any road in America will produce more cigarette butts than ANY other pollution. The problem is endemic to the smoker culture. "Hey, it's just one little filter". Yeah, and just one little spark.......
There is even huge road signs here now that practically beg smokers not to toss butts, yet more fires pop up constantly here die to cigarettes.
But before you go touting the LAW, Slater, remember that the US government is a full partner in the tobacco industry. By taxing it (and let's not forget gov't subsidies to farmers) the gov't profits from it's citizens addictions. The Fed doesn't care if a 12 year old lights up. In fact it's counting on it as much as R.J. Reynolds. Tobacco is a HUGE source of income for the Fed. USAToday had figures which I can't find now (opinion piece in the last couple months) that showed a tiny percentage of that money goes into treating a national addiction problem. Mostly it goes to fund pet projects that would never pass on an open vote. Don't mistake the Fed for a partner in helping smokers or non-smokers. It is simply too involved in the money of addiction. If they thought they could get away with it- and most importantly TAX it, the Fed would be flying cocaine to Jr. High Schools in C-17's.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 17:41:35 [Permalink]
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While I'm not as rabid as Slater,
Oh you'd be hard pressed to find one more radid than me. Goddamned stuff killed my mother, my brother and my favorite uncle-the writer who made it possible for us to come to America.
And none of them died a "clean" death they all suffered for years.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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