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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2002 : 11:30:41
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quote:
A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that the Pledge of Allegiance is an unconstitutional endorsement of religion and cannot be recited in schools.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49407-2002Jun26.html
They need to get rid of the 1950ish addition of "under God". Then I'd have no problem at all with it being recited at school.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 06/26/2002 11:31:36
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 11:42:03 [Permalink]
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Even without it, it's nationalistic brainwashing that's worse than religion.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 13:11:39 [Permalink]
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This is all over the place now. I'm thinking the bolder of our kind might want to fire up the letter-to-the-editor machine before the fundies get the first words.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 13:50:11 [Permalink]
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This does seem to be good news--A start, of sorts. This was a split decision in a Federal Appeals court in San Francisco. I'm curious as to how the Renquist court will address the issue. Will they split tending toward the conservative interpretation, and rule that this, like "in God we trust" is merely benign language, and not prayer? I realize the endorsement aspect applies, but will Mr.'s Renquist, Scalia, Thomas, Kennedy, and Ms. O'Conner?
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 13:56:36 [Permalink]
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That's what I have been wondering Tim. It is interesting though that a previous Supreme Court decision was referred to. I'm not sure that will help but I doubt it can hurt. This would be a very minor victory for church/state separation but a victory nonetheless.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Hobbes
New Member
USA
34 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 15:10:42 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Even without it, it's nationalistic brainwashing that's worse than religion.
Uh... I suppose you could attach this sort of label to the pledge... if it was coerced out of people. I may be a bit biased, because I'm in the Air Force, but I don't think that speaking the pledge is brainwashing at all. National allegiance is not worse than religion, because you can serve the greater ideal, namely, a free society, while speaking out and trying to change the things you don't agree with. I see freely reciting the pledge (without the god part, mind you) as an affirmation of freedom.
Why the f--k didn't you tell us there was someone in the bathroom? Slip your mind? Did you forget there was someone in there with a god damned hand cannon? -Vince, Pulp Fiction |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 17:05:43 [Permalink]
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Well, if you have a teacher stand in front of a class and lead you at the age of five through eighteen to say something that you don't completely understand which means that you'll die for Chiquita if you're told to, then if that ain't brainwashing, I'd say it's pretty durn close.
quote:
Uh... I suppose
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Physiofly
Skeptic Friend
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 17:57:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, if you have a teacher stand in front of a class and lead you at the age of five through eighteen to say something that you don't completely understand which means that you'll die for Chiquita if you're told to, then if that ain't brainwashing, I'd say it's pretty durn close.
Well Gorgo, it obviously didn't brainwash you, Hobbes or me (and yes, I'm in the Air Force too and no, I won't die for Chiquita). I understand Hobbes' point - it's just an affirmation of our values which is how I think most Americans think of it and why so many fundies think the "under God" should be left in. However, your point is well taken - a common technique of group control (AKA "brainwashing") is repetition of "accepted" ideas. I think the answer to this dichotomy is to require critical thinking be taught in our schools as early as possible. It would be hard to make happen given the sad state of our education system but dropping the "under God" from the pledge is a good start.
"Men are so simple and so much inclined to obey immediate needs that a
deceiver will never lack victims for his deceptions." - Niccolo Machiavelli
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 18:18:39 [Permalink]
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I learned the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school, long before the most recent *under God* change. I first heard the new and silly pledge when I was in the auditorium of a school with my class, and I nearly choked when everybody else was chanting *under God* while I was saying *indivisible*. It took all of my self conntrol to stifle a horse laugh! I never recite the *under God* or *under Whoever or Whatever* part, so they have not yet taken over my brain. It is (obviously) an OLD BRAIN, and I do not come into contact with the Pledge of Allegiance very often. When I do, I think about something else of greater interest. I am patriotic in that I believe in the ideas of the founding fathers, but the Pledge of Allegiance was not a part of the founding of our great country.
ljbrs
"Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error." Goethe
Edited by - ljbrs on 06/26/2002 18:19:48 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 18:38:58 [Permalink]
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Well, the decision is likely to be overturned soon so any of our gloating over it is probably moot.
And, actually, they did brainwash me. It took years to get completely clear of religion and the religion of nationalism, and if you're in the Air Force and you're not going to fight so that Disney has slaves, then more power to you.
quote:
Well Gorgo, it obviously didn't brainwash you, Hobbes or me (and yes, I'm in the Air Force too and no, I won't die for Chiquita). I understand Hobbes' point - it's just an affirmation of our values which is how I think most Americans think of it and why so many fundies think the "under God" should be left in. However, your point is well taken - a common technique of group control (AKA "brainwashing") is repetition of "accepted" ideas. I think the answer to this dichotomy is to require critical thinking be taught in our schools as early as possible. It would be hard to make happen given the sad state of our education system but dropping the "under God" from the pledge is a good start.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2002 : 21:26:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, the decision is likely to be overturned soon so any of our gloating over it is probably moot.
I'm a bit afraid of that too. I say call/write your congressman and senators to tell them what you think. It may not change anything but it's letting someone in government know what the rest of the public thinks. Isn't what they are there for, to do the will of the people?
IMO, we have to speak up any chance we get or no one will know there are other opinions. I mean speak up in places that count, not just on web sites.
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*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 01:19:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/index.asp
I voted in all the polls listed in this folder. As expected it was about 3 or 4 to one against the courts ruling. (what morons!)
But this one, above.....what's wrong with you people in Seattle?
@????
It was almost 50/50. Was that a mistake?
Maybe we should all move to Washington. So we can be where there are more sensible people.
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*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 02:02:51 [Permalink]
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It will almost certainly be overturned. A pity.
But, it it's not, then we can demand that they get their damned slogan off our money.
f
Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it.... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.
-- Rev. Jimmy Swaggart (source unknown)
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