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NottyImp
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
143 Posts |
 Posted - 06/27/2002 : 03:18:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think the answer to this dichotomy is to require critical thinking be taught in our schools as early as possible. It would be hard to make happen given the sad state of our education system
I can opnly speak for Britain, but our government seems to have spent the last 20 years attempting to eradicate any kind of original thought or "critical thinking" from our children. Being able to question things sadly gets in the way of being a good, hard-working, loyal citizen and it's the last thing governments want to promote amongst the working population as far as I can see.
If we achieve any level of intellectual critical discourse it seems to me it is in spite of education, not because of it. Or am I being too cynical?
"My body is a temple - I desecrate it daily." |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 05:30:39 [Permalink]
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While I still heartily support and agree with the ruling, I'm beginning to feel less ecstatic about it, considering what I'm hearing at work and on the local news.
I'm disgusted and revolted by the obscene hypocrisy. Never in my personal experience have I gotten even a hint of nervousness for my safety or the quality of my work environment.
Not anymore. So-called "loving" Christians all around me are telling me how they think "these people" should be shot, California should be nuked, they should be sent to Iraq as women, etc.
So help me, if I get one email containing a joke or a diatribe calling for the painful deaths of people who agree with the ruling, I'm going to "come out of the closet", and let my fellow employees know that they are crossing the line.
(by the way, if anyone wants to continue discussing whether or not a sectarian pledge is good or bad, I humbly suggest a new thread in the Politics section.)
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 05:51:15 [Permalink]
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Preach it, brother Tokyo! 
I guess I'm most embarassed that the entirety of our elected governmental bodies (the president and senate at least) are completely ignorant of the facts of the case and the way constitutional law cases come to bear. The ad nauseating argument, last seen by me spewing from the trap of Newt the larger on Insanity and Colmes, that the judges should be removed because they are disconnected from popular opinion is absolutely, completely, and in no uncertain terms, bullshit. The only thing that matters is whether our appointed judicial officials find the pledge, and the language contained therein, to be in violation of any right or restriction delineated in the Constitution. Henceforth, in order to maintain a semblance of sanity, it shall be my standard practice when confronted with reactionary, emotional nonsense to simply ask for a Constitutionally-based argument that supports the continued inclusion of the God clause in the pledge. I expect that to end most discussions rather quickly.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 05:56:58 [Permalink]
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Well said. What I think people like Newt are forgetting is that the Constitution is supposed to protect people from changing public opinion. If it's popular superstitious nonsense, then Newt thinks that anyone who disagrees with it should be removed from office.
How about those brave public officials (some of whom seem to have forgotten the words) parading their love of theistic tyranny on the Capitol steps?
quote:
Preach it, brother Tokyo!
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 06:31:09 [Permalink]
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One of my Senators has already voiced his opinion, and is "shocked, saddened and exasperated by liberal efforts to eliminate any and all references to God in our country."
http://www.senate.gov/~voinovich/
This is the guy that, as governor, supported "With God All Things Are Possible" as the Ohio State motto.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 07:24:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
While I still heartily support and agree with the ruling, I'm beginning to feel less ecstatic about it, considering what I'm hearing at work and on the local news.
I'm disgusted and revolted by the obscene hypocrisy. Never in my personal experience have I gotten even a hint of nervousness for my safety or the quality of my work environment.
Not anymore. So-called "loving" Christians all around me are telling me how they think "these people" should be shot, California should be nuked, they should be sent to Iraq as women, etc.
So help me, if I get one email containing a joke or a diatribe calling for the painful deaths of people who agree with the ruling, I'm going to "come out of the closet", and let my fellow employees know that they are crossing the line.
Hallelujah!
________________________
Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7 of your life.
Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...Two more years...
*whine* |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 07:56:56 [Permalink]
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An interesting (supposed) fact I learned here (which I had to stop reading about halfway through page 4, as the adsurdity was making my head feel like it was about to explode) about what President Eisenhower said when he signed the law into place in 1954:
quote:
millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 08:12:06 [Permalink]
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The simplest reasoning I could come up with:
1. There is no possible way to claim that the 1954 law was in any way secular.
2. Since the law was not secular, it was religious.
3. If it was religious, it was unConstitutional.
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 08:17:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
The simplest reasoning I could come up with:
1. There is no possible way to claim that the 1954 law was in any way secular.
2. Since the law was not secular, it was religious.
3. If it was religious, it was unConstitutional.
Bingo. I expect to wear this argument out in the next few weeks.
BTW all, the good doctor's web page: www.restorethepledge.com is a good source of info about his endeavor. There are a few places for comments and such but it seems he is having server troubles at the moment.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 09:13:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
If anyone has any other links to polls, please add them to this thread. Thanks.
http://www.vote.com
And I'm telling you people. Don't wait, do speak out. Tell those morons at work what you think.
Call the Whitehouse and your congressmen. We can't go on letting THEM push us around.
I'm going to call Barbara (bubble head) Boxer as soon as I log off. I suggest you call your senators too.
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:02:07 [Permalink]
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As expected our representatives will make this a bigger issue than ohhhh protecting the nation so don't expect this to last long at all. I must say that the way the press is treating this is shamelful. Did anyone notice how odd the headlines looked? "Court declares Pldge Unconstitutional"? Hell it wouldn't take much to fix it up to comly with American ideals.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:15:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
If anyone has any other links to polls, please add them to this thread. Thanks.
http://www.vote.com
[/quote]
Whoops, sorry I see you already had that site but with all the garbage at the end of the address.
But for AOL users, you should see what's on the message board. [AOL News: Pledge Poll] Couldn't find one (execpt mine now) post for what the court did. Those idiots don't know what they are talking about. It's so frustrating.
I do feel better though, called Barbara, Diane and my congressman Howard Berman, told them there was no such thing as god and the court did the right thing AND they should stay out of it.
Of course when I asked how the comments were going my opinion was in the minority. Damn!
The senators weren't asking for names but said they were recording the tally however I was proud to give my name and address to the congressman.
(if I don't post again, you'll know the men in black came to my door)
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 10:15:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
If anyone has any other links to polls, please add them to this thread. Thanks.
http://www.vote.com
[/quote]
Whoops, sorry I see you already had that site but with all the garbage at the end of the address.
But for AOL users, you should see what's on the message board. [AOL News: Pledge Poll] Couldn't find one (execpt mine now) post for what the court did. Those idiots don't know what they are talking about. It's so frustrating.
I do feel better though, called Barbara, Diane and my congressman Howard Berman, told them there was no such thing as god and the court did the right thing AND they should stay out of it.
Of course when I asked how the comments were going my opinion was in the minority. Damn!
The senators weren't asking for names but said they were recording the tally however I was proud to give my name and address to the congressman.
(if I don't post again, you'll know the men in black came to my door)
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 11:18:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
One of my Senators has already voiced his opinion, and is "shocked, saddened and exasperated by liberal efforts to eliminate any and all references to God in our country."
http://www.senate.gov/~voinovich/
This is the guy that, as governor, supported "With God All Things Are Possible" as the Ohio State motto.
Those people are sick, IMO. Mentaly ill.
Ok, here's a site and I don't think it's been mentioned yet.
http://www.governmentguide.com
I'm thinking of calling P. Bush too but (sigh!) what a waste of time to tell him there is NO god. I can't stand listening to that that moron speak. Fortunately I'm usually sitting when I hear him talk.
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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