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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
 Posted - 06/27/2002 : 12:55:02 [Permalink]
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More polls:
http://abc27.com/
http://www.family.org/cforum/
And here is how I propose we solve this whole issue with the word "God" in the Pledge.
You take a stone tablet and carve the whole Pledge of Allegiance onto it, except you leave the part behind the word "UNDER" blank.
Like this:
I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under _________________, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
Next, you take this stone tablet and air lift it to the top of the Statue of Liberty where it is out of the reach and have the tablet under some sort of video surveillance to avoid the possibility of fraud.
Then President Dubya can address the nation to pray to whatever deity, deities, or other supernatural bogeymen they desire to fill in the blank. (This should be no problem for an omnipotent and omniscient deity who really feels that he/she/it/them should be included in our Pledge.)
For a supernatural deity it shouldn't take long for the blank to be filled. So you give it a couple days and then you air lift the tablet back down off the Statue of Liberty and whatever names have been carved into the stone will then be added to the Pledge.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." [Philip K. Dick, science-fiction author] |
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dimossi
Skeptic Friend
USA
141 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 14:49:25 [Permalink]
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You know, SFN will soon be the only site on the web without a poll about this 
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 14:52:50 [Permalink]
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Oh, and that www.wjhl.com site's poll question was ridiculous as many of them are because they make it look like anyone opposing the pledge is some kind of freak out of touch with America and its values. Their question was:
quote:
Do you believe children should be able to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in schools?
This one completely skips the real issue involved. A lot of the polls are similarly misleading but then that's often what polls are for I suppose.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 17:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
And here is how I propose we solve this whole issue with the word "God" in the Pledge.
You take a stone tablet and carve the whole Pledge of Allegiance onto it, except you leave the part behind the word "UNDER" blank.
Like this:
I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under _________________, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
Next, you take this stone tablet and air lift it to the top of the Statue of Liberty where it is out of the reach and have the tablet under some sort of video surveillance to avoid the possibility of fraud.
Then President Dubya can address the nation to pray to whatever deity, deities, or other supernatural bogeymen they desire to fill in the blank. (This should be no problem for an omnipotent and omniscient deity who really feels that he/she/it/them should be included in our Pledge.)
For a supernatural deity it shouldn't take long for the blank to be filled. So you give it a couple days and then you air lift the tablet back down off the Statue of Liberty and whatever names have been carved into the stone will then be added to the Pledge.
Love it, Dimossi.
Now, why can't the government have intelligent people working out situations that way?
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 19:12:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
You know, SFN will soon be the only site on the web without a poll about this
Oh darn. And I was just thinking that what we need is yet another pole....
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 19:48:27 [Permalink]
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Well, the main judge on the 3-judge panel canceled it, so I guess all of this is merely history.
ljbrs  
Edited by - ljbrs on 06/27/2002 19:55:29 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 20:53:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Well, the main judge on the 3-judge panel canceled it, so I guess all of this is merely history.
We're not licked yet. The ruling is suspended until an en banc judgement can be rendered. The 9th Circuit has a favorable record in these sorts of cases. Keep your fingers crossed.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 21:17:19 [Permalink]
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It's quite sad. They should (and it seems to me they are justified) in making a ruling purely on a completely reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.
Now here they are changing their minds because of popular opinion.
That's not how it's supposed to work guys...
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fortiter in re, suaviter in modo |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 22:06:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's quite sad. They should (and it seems to me they are justified) in making a ruling purely on a completely reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.
Now here they are changing their minds because of popular opinion.
That's not how it's supposed to work guys...
...especially not for appointed judges.
Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.
-D. Hume |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2002 : 23:12:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
It's quite sad. They should (and it seems to me they are justified) in making a ruling purely on a completely reasonable interpretation of the Constitution.
Now here they are changing their minds because of popular opinion.
That's not how it's supposed to work guys...
You are right, it really shouldn't work that way, with popular opinion. But so many people don't understand or know the law. They go by emotions. And politicians don't want to cause problems.
Can anyone tell me what they see on the news where they are?
Did they show Gray Davis (our Calif. governor) talking about how he wants to do all that he can to reverse the decision?
He was on a local channel this afternoon but I don't know if it would be shown nation wide.
I used to like him but now he's acting just like a stinking politician. The ads on TV are so bad, he's going to loose because of them not to mention the people hate what he did with the so called energy crisis.
If you can believe it, the guy running against him for the next election is a republician and an even worse conservitive on abortion and other religious matters. We have not many choices here.
So you can imagine what's going to happen when that guy gets in.
We really have to keep up protesting or 'they' are going to take over everywhere.
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*Carabao forever.
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Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2002 : 01:22:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm disgusted and revolted by the obscene hypocrisy. Never in my personal experience have I gotten even a hint of nervousness for my safety or the quality of my work environment.
Not anymore. So-called "loving" Christians all around me are telling me how they think "these people" should be shot, California should be nuked, they should be sent to Iraq as women, etc.
So help me, if I get one email containing a joke or a diatribe calling for the painful deaths of people who agree with the ruling, I'm going to "come out of the closet", and let my fellow employees know that they are crossing the line.
The local religionists have also gone apeshit over this, and this trend seems to be nationwide. There was nothing else on talk-radio today, which, I suppose, means that I'm lucky that I wasn't on. I might have been lynched otherwise. The fury of the religion lobby's reaction is actually frightening. It is as though reason itself is now a subversive doctrine. Most of what I hear is based on a complete, abysmal ignorance of this country's Enlightenment era founding principles.
I don't think the religion lobby's reaction could have been any crazier if the Court had ordered half the Houses of Superstition in the country seized for back taxes. What would Thomas Jefferson think?
Authority has every reason to fear the skeptic, for authority can rarely survive in the face of doubt.
-Robert Lindner
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2002 : 02:56:22 [Permalink]
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Ever since the entire senate paraded it's collective ass into the Capital to place a meaningless vote for a lack of confidence in the 9th Circuit Court committee, I've been getting progressively more depressed. One set back followed another. The outcry from so many Americans that otherwise could care less about Sunday worship are suddenly up in arms. The president is making comments about "under God" being a vallidation that all of our human rights magically appear from some divine creator, and, then, he follows up by saying he is only going to appoint judges that agree with his religious/political view. Next, the Supreme Court expands drug testing for school children, ignoring parental rights. Finally, that same court tells me that my tax dollars must go to help someone else, (that probably has a higher income than me), send their children to a parochial school, at the expense of the public school system.
I do believe that all of this is a national momentary lack of reason, and reason will prevail, eventually, but, in the meantime, I am truly getting frustrated.
There is some reason for hope, though. The Justice Deparment chose to pursue the 'Pledge' case through the full 9th Circuit appeals Court,(last I heard), rather than going straight to the Supreme Court. The reason, I think, is that the outcome in the Supreme Court is not a foregone conclusion, despite all the posturing on Capital Hill. Ms. O'Conner has expressed a dislike of overt religious dialogue previously. She is the swing vote.
And, Piltdown, you are absolutely right! Unfortunately, our president is in lock step with the 'religionists'. He seems to be adamant about pointing out that the Declaration of Independence acknowledges a Christian intent by the Founding fathers. Of course, he completely misses the point that the Declaration says nothing of a god, or God, or Christianity, or Jesus or even the Holy Ghost, but it does say Creator a couple of times. He, also, can't seem to grasp the idea that the Declaration has no power of law--That resides in the Constitution, which fails to even mention a creator.
I've always found it ironic that the religious set in America seem to give an incredible amount of lip service to the Bible and to the Constitution without ever reading either one!
"The Constitution ..., is a marvelous document for self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society." P. Robertson |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2002 : 09:03:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ever since the entire senate paraded it's collective ass into the Capital to place a meaningless vote for a lack of confidence in the 9th Circuit Court committee, I've been getting progressively more depressed
I know what you mean. That and the stock market. sigh!
Dimossi, (that was you right?) was kind enough to post the links to various sites on my egroup but I didn't see this one here, it is most interesting:
Michael Newdow's Pledge restoration website:
http://www.restorethepledge.com
And I'd suggest writing to the Los Angeles school board becasuse that was the basis of the law suit, not having to say the pledge in school.
http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us
email address of Roy Romer LAUSD superintendent:
superintendent@lausd.k12.ca.us
* * * * * *
*Carabao forever.
-----------------
Bye, bye Los Angeles. SAN FERNANDO VALLEY SECESSION - YES.
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2002 : 14:22:56 [Permalink]
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It was inevitable: Religious right columnist Cal Thomas has weighed in, suggesting that the pledge decision is worse than the 9-11 terror attacks:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/calthomas/ct20020628.shtml
quote:
On the eve of our great national birthday party and in the aftermath of Sept. 11, when millions of us turned to God and prayed for forgiveness of individual and corporate sins and asked for His protection against future attacks, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco has inflicted on this nation what many will conclude is a greater injury than that caused by the terrorists.
BTW, Thomas is considered quite moderate by RR standards.
Authority has every reason to fear the skeptic, for authority can rarely survive in the face of doubt.
-Robert Lindner
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