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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2002 : 15:34:35 [Permalink]
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I have no official stats to spout. I have only my decade of Special Operations involvement. Anyone can cut and paste quotes, now here it from the source.
Training should be more dangerous.
You cannot train safely for something as hazardous as combat and it be effective. Over the course of my career (I'm retired now) I watched the level of training drop to the point where weekend wannabe paintball players are better trained than many 11B (basic infanrty) soldiers.
The Army is scared of it's own guns. The average combat soldier sees his weapon maybe a couple times a quarter. He fires real, live ammo maybe 3 or 4 times a year, almost always on a static range from a fixed position. I put more bullets through my personal AR-15 in a weekend than most infantry guys do with thier M-16s in a year.
That is the reason for so many training accidents. It's a lack of proper training and desire to keep the guns locked away as much as possible.
Some of it is budget cut-backs.
Alot of this has to do with the officer promotion system. Commanders are usually in the position for a year or less. Any accident will reflect on thier record, so most prefer to not train rather than risk an injury that may hurt thier next OER (Officer Eval Report). It's easier to simply slide through your command time until that next staff position. I have witnessed this time and again.
The vast majority of soldiers time is wasted hanging around motor pools checking your vehicles for leaks for the umpteenth time. Either that or ridiculous parades and inspections. Drive around an army base and you'll see more troops picking up trash on the road than training for war. It's disgusting and a diservice to the soldier. I have honestly seen an entire battalion of infantry stop any military work to do landscaping (mowing, edging, flower planting[!] etc) for their headquarters building.
This is a peacetime mentality that leads to complacency. Also, the average troop is treated, and maybe rightfully so in some cases, as an imbecile. The term "private-proof" leaps to mind. Individual training at a squad level is nearly non-existant in live-fire training.
It's little wonder these troops kill each other pretty often in training. They are trained for parades, not war.
The exception here is my beloved Special Operations. These days the 101st and 82nd serve no purpose but inspections. If you want soemone dead, you call SpecOps.
SpecOps units have enormous budgets. A Special Forces battalion has a larger training budget than entire regular army brigades. Moreover, they use their budgets for intense training, not parades and crap.
In the 160th SOAR, we did training with live ammo regular units wouldn't do with blanks. The only person hurt on a range in the 160th I can remember was a pilot that put his index finger over the muzzle of an MP-5. That same year there were numerous fatalities in the 101st at ranges.
How many regular troops have ever had a real flash-bang go off at their feet? We had instructors wake us up with them. War is too dangerous to waste time on by-the-book training scenarios.
We don't flaunt safety. We view intense and sometimes risky training as safety in itself.
For instance: the 101st aviation (Ft Campbell) have to fly at night with huge spotlights on, for safety. They tend to crash otherwise. When in combat would this ever be acceptable? They train for peace, not war. The 160th routinely flies at one disk seperation (a diameter of the rotors) with full black out and NVGs. Who do you think is more prepared to survive combat?
In the 75th Ranger Rgt, even our personnel and finance support people were expert shooters. Our cooks were often used as OpFor.
Which bring me to the myth of 'support personnel not needing to be trained to standard.' Bunk. Just where do you think the Ranger, SEALs, SF, and well, others we won't mention, fight? Not the front. We go in behind the lines and hit those support units. So not only is the possiblity of direct combat there, but it is likely to be against highly trained Special Operations forces!
Fact: North Korea employs the largest Special Operations forces in the world.
Fact: The US has about 40,000 soldiers stationed in South Korea, a majority of which are support.
You do the math.
It is as bad to wantonly endanger a soldier with bad training as it is to send him to combat with bad training. Both are usually fatal.
Another fact: regular military (not just army) units were so hopelessly lost in the deserts of Saudi/Iraq/Kuwait that SF soldiers had to be attached to them to provide "ground truth" and help navigate. We do some pretty intense land nav training. Even with the mighty GPS, regular commanders were lost in the wadis. Better training, and training that didn't use a GPS as a crutch, would have spared SF troops from hand-holding the regular forces.
I talked with several French Foreign Legion troops (those guys are f**king hard core!) who had the misfortune of being co-located with a certain US division (no names, but a choking chicken adorned their shoulder) and lost any shred of respect for our military.
It's sad that the lives of Americas soldiers is squandered by timid commanders and wasteful pursuits like parades and sensitivity training. Should I blow the enemies head off or would that hurt his feelings?
Don't even get me started on Rules Of Engagement!
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 17:02:32 [Permalink]
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I've never run across a Special Op who ever thought that anyone else in the military was worth a damn. I suppose that's because all things are relative. It's like these guys all hail from Smallville. I'm sure as hell glad we've got them.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 19:09:19 [Permalink]
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Howard Zinn and other combat veterans who agree with much of what I would have to say might think that this isn't a very constructive statement.
quote:
I'm going to take a wild guess that Gorgo has never spent a day in uniform.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 08:27:37 [Permalink]
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Evidently not.
quote:
Have I said anything against anyone in the military?
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Edited by - gorgo on 08/01/2002 08:28:20 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 13:39:44 [Permalink]
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I know I took some shots at specific units. Yes, the Spec Ops community often does look down on regular units. I'm not blasting the individual troops. I know some fine regular army guys. Spec Ops pulls it's people from conventional units.
My contention is that these units have lost thier way. The military in general is much kinder and gentler now than just a decade ago. Our technology is the fangs of our forces, not the soldiers.
Example: for years Army basic training was 8 weeks. Less than half ot it spent on the range or doing bayonet training. For years there were calls from the brass to lengthen the training to accomodate more BRM (Basic Rifle Marksmanship). It was never adopted. Within the last couple years basic was lengthened to accomodate SENSITIVITY TRAINING. That's right, today's soldiers get about as much training on EO and how to file a complaint, as they do with a rifle in thier hands.
That's your tax dollars at work, folks. In the Army, you are required to qualify with a weapon twice a year (although very few support units meet this requirement). The required EO and sensitivity training is conducted quarterly. This should offer some insight into the military's priorities.
It's not that the troops in the conventional units suck, it's that they are strapped by the ridiculous rules set by self-serving commanders who's only concern is that next OER. They aren't trained as well and it shows in garrison as well as in war. This isn't a slap at the troops, it's a jab at their inept, gutless, leadership who prefer a pass and review to bounding overwatch.
We've lost that warrior spirit at the command level. Technology is great, but in the last 30 years, both the Soviets and America learned the hard way that raw determination and people willing to die for thier cause can be effective even when totally outclassed militarily.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2002 : 13:52:41 [Permalink]
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Slight clarification. When I said "I'm sure as hell glad we've got them" I was talking about the Spec Ops themselves. I've nothing but admiration for them.
I was attached to the ONI in Nam, myself.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 00:08:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did the people who made these videos think that the U.S. is "evil" and are they Anti-American?
Not being clairvoyant, I wouldn't know. If taken at face value, it certainly leads to very negative conclusions about the United States.
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Is Panama now allowed to bomb the U.S.?
Many would see it that way: The video's allegations are quite capable of inciting or rationalizing violence. Of course, I have no way of knowing how many Panamanians, as opposed to Hollywood activists and Canadian radicals, actually believe it.
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Actually, I think what I said at the time that it is either a medical term which is defunct, or it is an insult to someone's intelligence and tells me more about you than it does about the people you need to label.quote:
As you indicated at the time, it has little meaning in and of itself.
yep, that's pretty meaningless, especially the part about what it tells you about me.
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Actually, it would be an ad hominem attack (a tactic that shows that you don't have much going for your side) to call someone a moron.
This is simply dishonest. For it to have any validity, I would have to use these labels and nothing else. Proof to the contrary is there for all to see. quote:
It would not be an ad hominem attack to point out that someone called someone else a moron.
It certainly is if you claim that it validates your own argument, which is what you did. quote:
This shows your need to set yourself up as an authority, and define who shall be worthy of life on your earth, and who shan't.
As, for example, by confidently lecturing other people about what their thoughts and motives are, and what they mean? Hmmm. And now, you accuse me of marking these now-famous "morons" for death. When have I said that, or does it flow automatically from your political ideology, and you therefore project it onto others? The experience of the last century would suggest that it does. You are weirdly obsessive about this "moron" business. Why? Did it get to you that much to have your language control bubble burst?
I still don't like the Army of Fun stuff, and I think Falwell and Robertson deserved their "moron of the year" award, though I should clarify that this is not the sum total of our criticism of them over the years.
Authority has every reason to fear the skeptic, for authority can rarely survive in the face of doubt.
-Robert Lindner
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2002 : 03:08:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not being clairvoyant, I wouldn't know. If taken at face value, it certainly leads to very negative conclusions about the United States.
Which doesn't equal "evil." Even not taken at face value, the U.S. attacked another country and murdered some people and installed a "democratic" government. This is something for which they condemn other people. Whether there are "mass graves" or not, it is imperialism and it is murder. The movie itself is not complete proof of anything.
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Many would see it that way: The video's allegations are quite capable of inciting or rationalizing violence. Of course, I have no way of knowing how many Panamanians, as opposed to Hollywood activists and Canadian radicals, actually believe it.
If there are many that "believe" it, does that make it factual? Does "belief" take away from the fact that the U.S. is not subject to law or ethics?
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This is simply dishonest. For it to have any validity, I would have to use these labels and nothing else. Proof to the contrary is there for all to see.
And you have their medical charts to prove that they are "morons?"
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You are weirdly obsessive about this "moron" business. Why? Did it get to you that much to have your language control bubble burst?
It was relevant to the conversation I was attempting to have with you. You are weirdly obsessive about being clairvoyant.
quote:
I still don't like the Army of Fun stuff, and I think Falwell and Robertson deserved their "moron of the year" award, though I should clarify that this is not the sum total of our criticism of them over the years.
How impressed they must be with your evaluation.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 09:43:27 [Permalink]
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Has anyone watched the History Channel reality show "Basic Training"? I believe it's just the full version of what was on the Army recruiting website.
I didn't want to watch, I knew I'd just get mad. But I just had to see how worthless it is over a decade after I went thru it.
First off: co-ed basic. Do I even need to eloborate? My wife went to co-ed basic in '95(she quit the Army and agrees with my position of women in uniform) and spent more time flirting than training. At least two of her group ended up pregnant in BASIC FUCKING TRAINING! Not even 2 months into a career that is supposedly about national defense. By the end of her AIT (Intel) fully half of the girls that she had been in basic with (most of them went intel, so they were still together at Ft Huachuca) had either been thrown out or got married and quit. Basic was more a dating service than combat preparation.
The show had the drills talking about the next mornings (Initial) PT test. It sounded like a soccer mom giving the girls a pep talk. All about doing your best (ripping off the Cub Scouts for fuck's sake!) and it's okay if you 'need improvement'. I think the camera cut off just before they all held hands and sang the theme from Barney. I almost expected teletubbies to be grading the test.
I'm betting the rifles in BRM are pink, or at least a non-threatening teal. An entire Army of Radar O'Reilly's still needing teddy bears to sleep with. Or in co-ed training.....
Give them butter knives instead of bayonets, they will be about as effective in the hands of these idiots.
I can't wait to see the episode on Victory Tower (The same tower I had to negotiate). We were there for a couple hours. Climb on the jungle gym and move on. But this show makes it look like it's a daunting task and the previews show one dude scared as hell. Hey pussy, you can jump off the thing and be okay. How much would anyone like to bet that this stud also has an Airborne option in his contract. Waste of flesh.
The show may try to make basic look tough (the catch phrase in ads is "Could You Do It?) but anyone watching it will see the loons in the militia movement are better trained.
My basic wasn't difficult at all, and it certainly wasn't all touchy feely like it is today. Vets from before my time laughed at my training as girly. So the progression has been going on since the microchip became our country's warriors. Soldiers are just there to push the buttons now.
I imagine the basic at Sand Hill is a bit tougher, but the standards are the same due to policy, so even there, shitbags will slide thru easily.
I think anyone who pays taxes should tune in to see just what a waste of money basic is today. People going thru are vaguely more useful as soldiers than the civilians they were prior to showing up.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 10:05:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
My basic wasn't difficult at all, and it certainly wasn't all touchy feely like it is today. Vets from before my time laughed at my training as girly. So the progression has been going on since the microchip became our country's warriors.
Well not that I have any personal experinece to comment on that, but I would wager that if you looked for it, you would find testimony to prove that this process has been going on for quite a bit longer then that. I imagine 2000 years ago retired Roman legionaries where moaning about the degradion of the military service ,how training had been harder in their days and how todays soldiers where just a bunch of sissys.
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 11:44:34 [Permalink]
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> Actually, it would be an ad hominem attack (a tactic that shows that
> you don't have much going for your side) to call someone a moron.
An insult is not the same thing as an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack focuses on the person, not the argument. An insult focuses on the person whether there is an argument or not.
Edited by - antie on 08/13/2002 11:44:58 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 12:54:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
I imagine 2000 years ago retired Roman legionaries where moaning about the degradion of the military service ,how training had been harder in their days and how todays soldiers where just a bunch of sissys.
Er..umm...Lars...didn't they get over run by barbarians?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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jec96
Skeptic Friend
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2002 : 17:02:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
They're selling this to kids who think they're going to last forever.
They don't tell you who you're going to kill and why, either.
Tell them they're going to go kill peasants in some Central or South American Country to make sure that Coca-Cola or Chiquita or Disney has slaves.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
Gorgo, Obviously you have never served.
I gather this from your retoric. Coca Cola slaves? Tell them they are going to kill? Do you honestly think that has to be spelled out? Or this is actually a human with an above room temp. IQ that has not grasped this yet?
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
Edited by - jec96 on 08/15/2002 17:04:41 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2002 : 18:13:40 [Permalink]
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This is relevant in what way? You're saying that all those that have ever been in the military lap up the State Department propaganda served up by the corporate media every day?
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Gorgo, Obviously you have never served.
I gather this from your retoric.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn |
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jec96
Skeptic Friend
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2002 : 13:31:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
This is relevant in what way? You're saying that all those that have ever been in the military lap up the State Department propaganda served up by the corporate media every day?
No, but nor do we automatically put down any and all actions of said department. The difference that needs understanding is that of orders and support. The orders are followed, if the are true and legal, but you do not have to like them. I thought the whole Gulf war was foolish, and a waste. But I went. I followed the lawful orders, supported my troops both above and below me. Your retoric smacks of something from the 60's and 70's, where badmouthing the military and the goverment for everything was the "in" thing. We do serve a purpose, from the newest clerk up to the special, elite units such as the Spec. Forces, Seals and my old unit, the 75th Ranger regiment. Always support them, no matter what you may think of the goverment. The job they do is of an importance you cannot fathom.
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Gorgo, Obviously you have never served.
I gather this from your retoric.
"Not one human life should be expended in this reckless violence called a war against terrorism." - Howard Zinn
-It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
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