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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2002 : 00:37:17 [Permalink]
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Looking through this thread, there's a simple fallacy about "cryptozoology" that comes to my mind. If I wanted to study rare, exotic, or even perhaps "legendary" animals, why not earn a degree, become an actual zoologist, and apply sound scientific methodology and the principles of good research to the discovery and study of rare animals? (And if they don't exist, be willing to accept that proof as well.)
"Cryptozology" seems more like "Cryogenics" and other pseudo-sciences taking on non-scientific elements, such as newspaper accounts, to bolster preconceptions or even religious or philosophical doctrines. The study of legends and myths might be useful, within the field of legends, myths and philosophy, but not the science of zoology - (including the great many levels of study within zoology.)
If someone were really "serious" about discovering new or rare animals in the world, it seems that they'd want to do away with hearsay, rumor, and sensationalism, and seek and demand clear data that could be independently tested and verified. That's what real zoologists do. What's wrong with just being a "zoologist"? "Exobiology" is another example. (I realize the term is used by NASA, and it is actually a serious area of study.) Biologists work in this field. They are interested in the possibility and conditions of life on other planets. Some people claim to be an "exobiologists" as if they have already found extraterrestrial life. (By way of analogy: I'm reminded of the great Russian composer Igor Stravinsky who said many years ago when someone told him about the then new "high fidelity" recordings: "What's wrong with just fidelity?")
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan
Edited by - chippewa on 07/31/2002 00:47:12 |
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Robert
New Member
Korea
21 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2002 : 06:40:23 [Permalink]
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#3 I would have to say, I do believe that in all the depths of the oceans all over the world that there is at least one great creature we have yet to dicover.... of what kind though one can only imagine!!
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 05:49:39 [Permalink]
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[quote]
Looking through this thread, there's a simple fallacy about "cryptozoology" that comes to my mind. If I wanted to study rare, exotic, or even perhaps "legendary" animals, why not earn a degree, become an actual zoologist, and apply sound scientific methodology and the principles of good research to the discovery and study of rare animals? (And if they don't exist, be willing to accept that proof as well.)
{/quote]
That's exactly what professional cryptozoological societies encourage people who want to study hidden animals to do.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 08:40:19 [Permalink]
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That is exactly what we actual Zoologists do.
But sometimes, to quote Gertude Stein, there is no there, there.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 08/01/2002 10:00:09 |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 12:52:20 [Permalink]
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For one such so-called beast, Loch Ness is most likely impossible.
http://www.myspace.co.uk/nessie/nessie/nessgeo.html
Only 10kya the lock was covered with a glacier which in turn carved out its current location. Pretty hard to imagine some marine reptile of that size somehow surviving that long, then traveling to the land locked loch, and surviving without any "verifiable" detection for 10 ky.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 13:55:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Pretty hard to imagine some marine reptile of that size somehow surviving that long, then traveling to the land locked loch, and surviving without any "verifiable" detection for 10 ky.
Sung to the tune of Three Blind Mice:
"Land Locked Loch"
"Land Locked Loch"
"See how she swims"
"Following the whims"
"The Loch Ness Monster is here to see"
"But only in minds of those who flee"
"She cannah get out to the open sea"
"A Land Locked Loch!"
(Sorry - couldn't resist! I too find it hard to believe in the monster in the light of the geology of the region.)
"Speaking without thinking like shooting without aiming." - Charlie Chan
Edited by - chippewa on 08/01/2002 13:56:50 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 15:01:41 [Permalink]
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> As you say, it is unreasonable to believe these creatures exist.
> If something is unreasonable it is by definition against reason.
> ...another logical fallacy...
And equivocation (on the word "unreasonable") is another logical fallacy.
Edited by - antie on 08/01/2002 15:02:04 |
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The SollyLama
Skeptic Friend
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 15:34:45 [Permalink]
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the example of previously unknown life being discovered in the oceans depths as proof of even the possibility of other beasts such as Nessie or Bigfoot is flawed.
First, when we did discover life near thermal stacks, we found a huge abundance of it. There is no shortage of critters to examine. Merely entering the environment exposed us to multitudes of life.
But with the Loch Ness creature, there is supposedly one, or maybe a couple a best. Same with Bigfoot.
Even going by the example of the ocean floor, we should expect to see more examples than a solitary creature. And all these real animals do leave behind trace evidence. All you have to do is go to the environment and collect it. This is not the case for Bigfoot et al.
Be your own god!
(First, and only, commandment of Sollyism)
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2002 : 16:30:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
But with the Loch Ness creature, there is supposedly one, or maybe a couple a best. Same with Bigfoot.
If you can believe the legends, there are Loch Ness and bigfoot type creatures all over the world. There are Lake Mosters in every bigger Lake and Loch in Euorope and North America. And Bigfoots/sasquatchs/yetis have been 'sighted' all over the world.
One thing you can't Cryptozoologist accuse of is the small number of creatures there are supposed to exist of every kind.
You could make a good argument about the maximum sice and number of a type of creature in such a small enclosed environment as Loch Ness. It is to small to keep a big enough herd of ginat creatures fed to prevent inbreeding. There hardly is enough fish there to feed a single pleiosaur.
I think it is safe to say that we won't find anything new larger then an elephant outside the very depths of the oceans.
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 10:42:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not the Oliver Cromwell of "round-head", English civil war, Drogheda and Wexford massacres fame?
Who is this fellow?
I have no idea, but the date attributed to the quote is about 100 years too early for the man you mean.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 10:53:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Only 10kya the lock was covered with a glacier which in turn carved out its current location. Pretty hard to imagine some marine reptile of that size somehow surviving that long, then traveling to the land locked loch, and surviving without any "verifiable" detection for 10 ky.
First of all, we don't know what Nessie is, assuming it is real. I thinks it's probable, but I would not say it is certain. Anywho, it could be just an usually large unknown species of fish, whose ocean-going relatives are now extinct.
Secondly, when the glaciers retreated, Loch Ness was a fiord for a time until the Scottish land mass rose high enough to lift it far enough above sea level to cut it off. Who knows what could have been living in the fiord that got trapped when the land rose?
Thirdly, seals were known to make it up the River Ness from the sea, until a system of locks was put in. One could imagine other creatures making the same journey before man arived.
Fourthly, it has only been within the last hundred years or so that any scientific interest in Nessie has arisen. 100+ plus years is I think a bit too short a time to draw any firm conclusions about Nessie, considering the conditions of the loch.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 10:57:44 [Permalink]
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The evidence I want to present is in the form of photograghs. What is the policy for presenting such evidence? Can they be attached to messages, or should I post them on the web for people to see?
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 11:26:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can they be attached to messages, or should I post them on the web for people to see?
I think it would be best if you post a link to a webpage that contains the photographs, if possible. Otherwise, ask @tomic how he wants to deal with direct pictures.
-me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 11:57:05 [Permalink]
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If they are already on the web a link is definately the way to do it.
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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echthroi_man
Skeptic Friend
104 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2002 : 21:17:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
If they are already on the web a link is definately the way to do it.
To my knowledge they are not; I would have to scan them and create a website to put them on. That will take more time than I can devote to this weekend.
The Irish Headhunter
Oblivion -- When you REALLY want to get away from it all! |
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Topic Locked
