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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2002 : 15:02:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Tokyodreamer wrote:
Maybe I should have said "armchair etymology"!
Or, perhaps, "astral etymology".
Ah, I was wondering if that was a masked criticism. I see it probably was. I'm certainly not saying that this site is a scholarly source. I just think the claim is an interesting one, and it's made by an Indian, who probably has the background to make a reliable claim about the origin of the word.
The reliability of that site and its accuracy in what it says about the origins of the word "Christos" are arguable, sure, but that has no bearing on my statement that the study of the origin of words in general is fun.
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I am the storm
Sent to wake you from your dreams
Show me your scorn
But you'll thank me in the end
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 08/09/2002 15:03:05 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 08:02:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Tokyodreamer wrote:
The reliability of that site and its accuracy in what it says about the origins of the word "Christos" are arguable, sure, but that has no bearing on my statement that the study of the origin of words in general is fun.
I agree. A fun source might be Take Our Word For It which notes: quote:
Christ means "anointed" and is a Greek translation of the Hebrew mesiach (messiah). Krishna means "dark". We realize that Krishna looks a little like Christ but there is actually no letter I in Krishna. It's just put there to make it easier for Westerners to pronounce. When written in the standard Sanskrit transliteration, Krishna looks like Krsna but with little dots below the R, the S and the N.
There is no connection either in their meaning or their etymology.
Meanwhile, Etymology Online writes: quote:
Christ - O.E. crist, from L. Christus, from Gk. khristos "the annointed" (translation of Heb. mashiah, see messiah), from khriein "to rub, annoint." The L. term drove out O.E. hæland "healer" as the prefered descriptive term for Jesus. A title, treated as a proper name in O.E., but not regularly capitalized until 17c. Pronunciation with long -i- is result of Ir. missionary work in England, 7c.-8c.
Also, in this Etymology and History of First Names notes: quote:
KRISHNA m Indian, Hindu Mythology
Means "black, dark" in Sanskrit. This is the name of a Hindu god believed to be an incarnation of the god Vishnu. He was the youngest of King Vasudeva's eight children, six of whom were killed by King Kamsa because of a prophecy that a child of Vasudeva would kill Kamsa. Krishna however was saved and he eventually killed the king as well as performing many other great feats.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/10/2002 08:03:47 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 11:45:16 [Permalink]
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Are you saying that the Greek word Christna doesn't mean Christna-a god they worshiped- but only some Jewish "inhouse" term?
The word Christna or Christus means the blue black one. The god Christna was called the annointed one.
Just like the name Jesus means beloved of god (or some such sentiment) Jesus was called the good shepherd. So you could claim-if you were reworking things to suit you-that Jesus means the good shepherd.
The name Christna doesn't have "the anointed one" as it's root meaning, but it came to mean that because of the god.
Christna was worshiped by some of Alexander the Greats officers. But the worship died out. Hundreds of years later Apollonius of Tyana went on a pilgrimage following the route of Alexander and studied at the same monasteries that his officers had. Apollonius brought the religion back to Rome. It made poverty a virtue and so not surprisingly became very popular with well to do women. They held their services in the catacombs. Detractors said to lend it an air of mystery which it other wise lacked. They had as their symbol the zodiac sign Pisces (at the time a single fish) the sign of rebirth.
Apollonius was arrested and brought before Nero but was released. We still have the Romans records of this, and the museum of Milan has a good sized exhibit of Apollonius' personal effects.
According to the Jesus people. They also called themselves after the Vedic god but the Greek word was really Jewish. They also met in the catacombs because the Roman government that was tolerant of all other religions was not tolerant of theirs. They also had the sign of the fish but because some friends of Jesus used to be fishermen before they changed careers. Peter and Paul were also arrested by Nero at the same time as Apollonius but their records were lost.
A lot of claims taken as fact because the Imperial Roman Government made it the law that they be believed. To this day if you ask anyone they will tell you that the gospels were written around 70 CE. Where you run into trouble is when you ask how they know.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 11:45:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
Are you saying that the Greek word Christna doesn't mean Christna-a god they worshiped- but only some Jewish "inhouse" term?
No. I am saying that I have yet to see a compelling reason to equate Christna with Christos. I do not insist on the absence of a common etymology, but I do suggest that even this would be insufficient reason to interpret Jesus Christ as a pagan (rather than Jewish) designation. I am saying that my understanding, derived from numerous sources, is that Christos is the Greek translation of the Hebrew messiach. I have sought to support this understanding with numerous quotes. So, for example: quote:
Messiah (from the Hebrew moshiach, meaning "anointed"), refers in Judaism to the new leader (moshiach) who will rebuild the land of Israel and restore the Davidic Kingdom, while Christians generally consider Jesus Christ to be the Messiah and often use the words Messiah and Christ synonymously.
In all thirty-nine instances of its occuring in the Old Testament, it is rendered by the Septuagint as christos. The New Testament records the Greek form messias only twice.
- see Messiah - From Wikipedia; emphasis added
I do not know what was intended by the dismissive: "... only some Jewish "inhouse" term" I do, however, believe that you are unjustified in proclaiming that Christ "is not a word at all in Hebrew. Comes from the god Christna's name. It's pagan not a Jewish concept, not a Messiah". I am suggesting this claim has no more substance that the suggestion that 'Jesus' comes fro 'Zeus'.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 11:48:33 [Permalink]
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Are you saying that the Greek word Christna doesn't mean Christna-a god they worshiped- but only some Jewish "inhouse" term?
The word Christna or Christus means the blue black one. The god Christna was called the annointed one.
Just like the name Jesus means beloved of god (or some such sentiment) Jesus was called the good shepherd. So you could claim-if you were reworking things to suit you-that Jesus means the good shepherd.
The name Christna doesn't have "the anointed one" as it's root meaning, but it came to mean that because of the god.
Christna was worshiped by some of Alexander the Greats officers. But the worship died out. Hundreds of years later Apollonius of Tyana went on a pilgrimage following the route of Alexander and studied at the same monasteries that his officers had. Apollonius brought the religion back to Rome. It made poverty a virtue and so not surprisingly became very popular with well to do women. They held their services in the catacombs. Detractors said to lend it an air of mystery which it other wise lacked. They had as their symbol the zodiac sign Pisces (at the time a single fish) the sign of rebirth.
Apollonius was arrested and brought before Nero but was released. We still have the Romans records of this, and the museum of Milan has a good sized exhibit of Apollonius' personal effects.
According to the Jesus people. They also called themselves after the Vedic god but the Greek word was really Jewish. They also met in the catacombs because the Roman government that was tolerant of all other religions was not tolerant of theirs. They also had the sign of the fish but because some friends of Jesus used to be fishermen before they changed careers. Peter and Paul were also arrested by Nero at the same time as Apollonius but their records were lost.
A lot of claims taken as fact because the Imperial Roman Government made it the law that they be believed. To this day if you ask anyone they will tell you that the gospels were written around 70 CE. Where you run into trouble is when you ask how they know.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 11:54:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
According to the Jesus people. They also called themselves after the Vedic god but the Greek word was really Jewish.
Well, it certainly doesn't get much more clear than that. Thanks.
By the way, when are you going to support the insinuation that Helms claims that Paul is non-Jewish?
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 12:26:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
Apollonius was arrested and brought before Nero but was released. We still have the Romans records of this, and the museum of Milan has a good sized exhibit of Apollonius' personal effects.
Would you please supply a reference for this exhibit? By the way: quote:
"...The question of whether Philostratus had access to a firsthand source as he claimed (i.e., the diary of Damis, a disciple of Apollonius) or whether Philostratus simply created a good deal of the material himself is still debated by scholars."
"...In the ecumenical and eclectic climate of the circle of Julia Domna [the Empress who was the wife of Septimius Severus who reigned from AD 193-211], Philostratus possibly borrowed some miracle stories from the Gospels to help him flesh out his portrait of Apollonius as a great philosopher and miracle-worker."
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 2.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 16:25:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Would you please supply a reference for this exhibit?
It's on the second floor at the north end of the building. The Museum of Milan has the largest collection of Apollonius of Tyana artifacts.
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http://sangha.net/messengers/appolonius.htm
quote:
Though literate, nothing written by Apollonius, himself, has passed down to us, as having been written by Apollonius (see "A Short History of Gnosticism"). Fortunately, Apollonius' longest standing disciple, Damis, kept detailed records. These had been edited into a biography entitled: "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana" by Philostratus (which survived) along with a few assorted legends(2). If, in fact, as Hierocles claimed, it was Apollonius' library that was plaigerized to produce the New Testament, then Apollonius must have been the basis for the character of Paul of Tarsus. Paul, like Apollonius, was not married, something most anomolous for a Hebrew Rabbi. Paul also had an intimacy with the Christ's teachings that for having met Christ only once, was most extraordinary, and he often wrote in his epistles as if those teachings were his own, not saying whose they were. Both had the benefit of being Roman citizens. Apollonius' passion for learning the secrets of every religion he encountered occasioned to get him into trouble. He was reputed to have forced his way into the Holy of Holies, by feats of magick, and got jailed for it. The Pharasees wanted him killed, but to his Roman jailers, this was not a killing offense, but neither could they release him. They sought to flog him, but Apollonius stood on his Roman citizenship and the jailers backed down. Eventually, he was transfered out. He was also reported to have been imprisoned in Damascus, because of similar efforts. These jailers treated him well, because they knew of him by reputation and respected him, but could not release him without inciting a mob to riot. After a time, Apollonius was smuggled out of a window and into a wicker basket, similar to a story told of Paul (2 Co. 11:33). If Paul were not Apollonius, then he should be exceedingly suspect for his apparent hatred of Jews in his claim that they murdered the Christ:
quote:
Apollonius was devoted to discovering and understanding all of the secret doctrines of all of the world's religions. To this end, he made two seperate trips to India, from which he brought back the teachings of Krishna (born 3333 BC, regarded as an incarnation of Vishnu). Krishna, to the Greeks, was known as "Christos". It was Apollonius' writings about Krishna, that Bishop Marcian discovered in Asia Minor a century later and translated from Samaritan into Greek and Latin, to produce the first compiled "Christian" Bible.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 08/10/2002 16:35:25 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2002 : 18:22:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
In response to: Would you please supply a reference for this exhibit?
Slater writes:
It's on the second floor at the north end of the building. The Museum of Milan has the largest collection of Apollonius of Tyana artifacts.
Apparently, the Museum is closed for renovation throughout 2002. They should nevertheless respond to email, and I will endeavor to pursue this avenue. In the meantime, again, would you please supply any reference for this exhibit?
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2002 : 00:27:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Apparently, the Museum is closed for renovation throughout 2002. They should nevertheless respond to email, and I will endeavor to pursue this avenue. In the meantime, again, would you please supply any reference for this exhibit?
Like what? I'm not responcible for what they do or do not put on the web. I went there and saw it myself.
You might try Museo di Napoli which has a bust or two of him that were done from life and the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, has the celebrated "Farnese Bull" which was actually sculpted by Apollonius and his brother Hestiaeus.
Just what do you hope to learn that you can't find out from all the many web sites on him or from a trip to your local library?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2002 : 06:11:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
I went there and saw it myself. You might try Museo di Napoli which has a bust or two of him that were done from life and the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, has the celebrated "Farnese Bull" which was actually sculpted by Apollonius and his brother Hestiaeus.
Just what do you hope to learn that you can't find out from all the many web sites on him or from a trip to your local library?
I don't know - one can never be too sure what one might learn from you next. Perhaps, in this case, I had hoped to learn how you could confuse Apollonius of Tyana with Apollonius of Tralles, and do so with such certainty.
quote:
Farnese Bull
sculptured group representing Zethus and Amphion, sons of Antiope, tying Dirce (who had ill-treated their mother) to an enraged bull. The sculpture is generally considered to have been executed by Apollonius of Tralles and his brother Tauriscus in the 1st or 2d cent. BC A copy made in the early 3d cent. AD decorated the Baths of Caracalla. This copy, with incorrect restorations, was later in the Farnese Palace and is now in the National Museum, Naples. [emphasis added]
quote:
Apollonius of Tralles
APOLLONIUS OF TRALLES (in Caria), a Greek sculptor, who flourished in the 2nd century B.C. With his brother Tauriscus, he executed the marble group known as the Farnese Bull, representing Zethus and Amphion tying the revengeful Dirce to the tail of a wild bull.
Might I suggest that you take more seriously Huxley who, I'm informed, wrote: "My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ".
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/11/2002 06:13:13 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2002 : 10:59:50 [Permalink]
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APOLLONIUS OF TRALLES
Oh thanks; my mistake. I took that off the web without second checking .You are quite right.
However what has my flub to do with Apollonius of Tyana and his "Christians"? That information is easily found. I assume-since you corrected me on Tralles-you have already found it for yourself.
Is it just easier to attack me than to incorporate new information into your thinking? Are you so desperate for a Jew to be deified?
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2002 : 12:08:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
... what has my flub to do with Apollonius of Tyana and his "Christians"? That information is easily found. I assume-since you corrected me on Tralles-you have already found it for yourself.
I believe the 'flub' to be fully symptomatic of your methodology. You have yet to fully explain your 'flub' about Paul, much less offer anything concrete from Helms. Your suggestion that the term 'Christos' has nothing to do with Judaism is laughable.
quote:
Slater writes:
Is it just easier to attack me than to incorporate new information into your thinking?
What new information do you have that you find relevant to the discussion?
quote:
Slater writes:
Are you so desperate for a Jew to be deified?
Leaving aside the fact that I am an atheist, I honestly can't tell if this statement is antisemitic or simply peurile.
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 12:01:36 [Permalink]
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It's a shame. Two debaters with opposing views on this forum who both seem to have a decent amount of knowledge on the subject which could benefit a great many of us who are interested and they need to take pot shots at each other.
"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 13:00:25 [Permalink]
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Sorry DVF but that's the way it always seems to go between me and she. I find her arrogant, she finds me guilty of any number of political incorrections. It would seem that the only purpose of any of her posts is to put her in a position where she can claim moral superiority.
I've been taught to never debate from authority while she demands it. 'Don't tell me your ideas until you can claim that they came from someone else.'
Frankly I have been an ass to play these games of hers and I admit it.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 08/12/2002 13:02:21 |
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