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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2002 : 15:05:03 [Permalink]
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Neither of you owe anything to me or anyone else who chooses to follow your discussions. I merely find it frustrating.
Admittedly I do not understand what Reasonable would like in response to his request for a reference for a museum exhibit. I hope he isn't insinuating dishonesty on your part. I likewise do not understand the problem with supplying him a reference for the etymology of christ.
"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 17:14:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
I likewise do not understand the problem with supplying him a reference for the etymology of christ.
I believe Resonable Doubt is a lady
The etymology reference was on the last page as was a reference to one of the multiple Pauls
quote:
Apollonius was devoted to discovering and understanding all of the secret doctrines of all of the world's religions. To this end, he made two seperate trips to India, from which he brought back the teachings of Krishna (born 3333 BC, regarded as an incarnation of Vishnu). Krishna, to the Greeks, was known as "Christos". It was Apollonius' writings about Krishna, that Bishop Marcian discovered in Asia Minor a century later and translated from Samaritan into Greek and Latin, to produce the first compiled "Christian" Bible.
Not much as far as etymology goes the title Christos comes from the name Christos.
Personally it seems very strange that there should be two groups of people in the catacombs of Rome at the same time and both calling themselves Christians. And why is information on this second group so hard to come by? Doesn't seem kosher.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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DVF
Skeptic Friend
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 18:20:55 [Permalink]
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Thank you, I do see where someone would potentially draw issue with this however. I perhaps am just exposing my laziness, but I didn't see on that site any reference to where the given information was derived. Perhaps you could supply another reference. A web link is not required, I am more than willing to visit the library.
For the sake of civil conversation please understand I am not challenging your assertation, just looking to reinforce it in as definitive a manner as the evidence allows.
[Edited for my lame-ass spelling and grammer]
"Know what, if you were in a building, and it was on fire, I'd rescue you."
- My Son 3/5/2002
Edited by - dvf on 08/12/2002 18:51:12 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 19:08:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
I didn't see on that site any reference to where the given information was derived. Perhaps you could supply another reference.
Just about everything we know about apollonius comes from "The Life of Apollonius of Tyana" by Philostratus who used the records of A's oldest disciple, Damis.
The problem with web searching is that Apollonius became the darling of the Victorian age Spiritualist (old new agers) and many sites are filled with their fantasies. Then there are other sites by Xian apologetics that are only intent on discrediting him because he did all the same healing miracles Jesus gets credit for. But you'll find that his basic story stays pretty much the same.
And he does have the advantage over Jesus of having left evidence behind that he was actually here.
You might also like to try here
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius01.html
this site at least trys to be scholarly
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860
Edited by - slater on 08/12/2002 19:10:26 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 19:44:34 [Permalink]
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Slater asserts as fact:
"It [Christ] means the anointed one in Greek. It is not a word at all in Hebrew. Comes from the god Christna's name. It's pagan not a Jewish concept, not a Messiah."
Slater asserts as fact:
"A christ was never part of the Jewish religion. It is a pagan concept. Messiahs are Jewish. Jesus does nothing a Messiah was supposed to do."
Slater asserts as fact:
"The writings of "Paul" reflect the work of at least three different authors. None of whom was Jewish but all Roman and all anti-Semitic"
Slater asserts as fact:
"Jesus was given the title "the Christ" seventeen hundred years ago."
Slater asserts as fact:
"The word Christna or Christus means the blue black one. The god Christna was called the annointed one."
Slater asserts as fact:
"The name Christna doesn't have "the anointed one" as it's root meaning, but it came to mean that because of the god."
Slater asserts as fact:
"... the museum of Milan has a good sized exhibit of Apollonius' personal effects."
Slater asserts as fact:
"It's on the second floor at the north end of the building."
Slater asserts as fact:
"The Museum of Milan has the largest collection of Apollonius of Tyana artifacts."
Slater asserts as fact:
"I went there and saw it myself."
Slater asserts as fact:
"the Museo Archeologico Nazionale, has the celebrated "Farnese Bull" which was actually sculpted by Apollonius and his brother Hestiaeus."
I distinguish between the evaluation of argument and the evaluation of fact.
When purported facts are asserted to bolster an argument, - it is perfectly legitimate to query those 'facts' deemed central to the argument and, in my opinion,
- it is fully appropriate to challenge those 'facts' which contradict prevailing informed consensus.
It is equally valid, when evaluating 'facts', to question the reliability of their source (when given). This is particularly true in a web-based world where every form of pseudo-scientific silliness finds a broad range of sponsors. For example, on whose authority are we to believe that "It was Apollonius' writings about Krishna, that Bishop Marcian discovered in Asia Minor a century later and translated from Samaritan into Greek and Latin, to produce the first compiled "Christian" Bible."?
Is Slater lying about the museum exhibit? At the very least, I most seriously doubt that was the intent. But, along with the other claims above, I find it remarkable that Apollionus of Tyana should leave a large collection of artifacts behind and available for our review. I suspect, instead, that we have a case of Slater relying somewhat too eagerly on 'facts' that he has subjected to little, if any, appropriate review. And, as I've said, and as I've attempted to demonstrate, this is characteristic of his methodology.
Also characteristic, in my opinion, is his reliance upon personal attribution and ridicule.
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Parenthetically, for what it's worth, I am a 57 year old father, grandfather, and long-time atheist.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/12/2002 20:04:56 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 20:00:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater writes:
You might also like to try here
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/apollonius01.html
this site at least trys to be scholarly
Thank you for the reference. I agree that it is a worthwhile site. Perhaps you and I could resolve our differences and come to agreement with its summary on 'Divine Men': quote:
The concept of the 'divine man' played an important role in the rise of Christianity. Like Jesus, the first Christians were Jews who believed that a Messiah was a teacher and/or a military leader who was to explain the Law of Moses correctly and was to restore Israel to its rightful first place among the nations. When Paul of Tarsus started to convert pagans, many of these converts believed that Jesus had been some kind of 'divine man'; where a Jewish messiah was still a mortal being, the 'Christ' of the (formerly pagan) Christians received divine attributes. At the same time, he was stripped of his political significance.
Since Jesus of Nazareth had become 'paganized', it became possible to compare him to the pagan 'divine men', as if he had not been a Jewish messiah. This opened a new way to attack Christianity, because the crucified carpenter could be presented as a failed 'divine man'. Sossianus Hierocles, a very important Roman official, used the LoA to write such an attack. He compared the badly written gospels and the miracles of the peasant Jesus to the beautiful Life of Apollonius and the acts of the Tyanean sage. A Christian author named Eusebius [note 13] felled compelled to write a response, in which he points to certain inconsistencies in Philostratus' Life of Apollonius: e.g., if Apollonius was a prophet and knew that he could disappear from Domitian's court (LoA 8.8), why did he prepare a speech to defend himself?
Ever since, Jesus and Apollonius have been compared. Although there are certain similarities (a charismatic teacher performing miraculous healing), the differences are larger. After all, the notion of a 'divine man' is distinctly pagan and not Jewish.
Perhaps I was simply focussing on the first paragraph while you were focussing on the last.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2002 : 23:07:29 [Permalink]
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You are a man?!!!
Well you fooled me, I thought you were an old woman with hormone problems.
Get your head out of your ass you half wit and either join the conversation, or get the fuck out of it. I'll take no more of your shit.
Yes, I asserted all those things and I was mistaken about one. I was corrected and we have gone on.
Do you think that I'm perfect, maybe I'm some Jewish Buddha?
You' re a man, ha, well numb nuts that changes everything.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 01:59:55 [Permalink]
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OK, it seems the point of civil conversation is passing. RD doesn't agree with Slater's assertions, and Slater is fed up with RD's repetitive challenges. While I, like DVF, am very interested in this conversation, I would ask all participants to please lay off the invective.
Slater, RD seems to want more verifiable facts than you've given him. Can you supply any more?
-me. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 04:09:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater, RD seems to want more verifiable facts than you've given him. Can you supply any more?
I would particularly appreciate a clarification/explication/resolution of the statements on Paul. It has been suggested (I think) that Helms supports Slater's position. If true, I would count that as valuable support. However, upon reading Slater, I'm truly not clear as to what's being implied verses what's being asserted, i.e., ...
Slater:
"The writings of "Paul" reflect the work of at least three different authors. None of whom was Jewish ..."
ReasonableDoubt:
"I know of no scholarship which questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins."
Slater:
"Helm's covers Paul with his standard overkill. I'm assuming that all of the Paul's weren't Jewish because of their pro-Roman anti-Semitic writings at around the time of the Roman destruction of Israel, combined with two of them having scant knowledge of Jewish customs. But you are right, one of them may possibly have been Jewish."
ReasonableDoubt:
"Perhaps I should try again: do you know of any scholarship that questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins?"
Slater:
"I already told you Helms but you choose to ignore me when I answer you would much rather flame me."
ReasonableDoubt:
"Are you asserting that Helms represents "scholarship that questions the historicity of Saul/Paul, his authorship of Philippians in the 3rd quarter of the 1st century, and, therefore, his Jewish origins"? If so, where?"
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 07:57:23 [Permalink]
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Also, as previously suggested, I have sent the following email to the Museum of Milan: quote:
I am hoping that you may be of some assistance in clarifyng an issue. I was recently informed that "The Museum of Milan has the largest collection of Apollonius of Tyana artifacts." and that, in fact, "It's on the second floor at the north end of the building." It was my understanding that we know of this 1st century sage solely through the efforts of Philostratus and, indirectly, through the so-called 'Letters of Apollonius'. I was therefore quite surprised to learn of the existence of extensive artifacts. Perhaps the gentleman was referring to an Apollonius of Tralles exhibit. Any information you might have on this matter would be greatly appreciated.
I will post whatever response is received.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 11:06:30 [Permalink]
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I would ask all participants to please lay off the invective.
Sorry Boron but this sort of nonsense of non sequitur demands in red type and e-mails to Milan are beyond the level at which I can control my civility.
What could be the possible point of any of this? If an E-mail comes back saying that the busts of Apollonius (which you can see for yourself on many of the Apollonius web sites) are now in the main lobby would that mean that Jesus was the Jewish messiah and the Vedic Indian culture picked up it's concept of a Christ from the Jews?
I'm about to fly off the handle again, so rather than do that ---ReasonableDoubt I quit, you win. The Jews for Jesus are right all the Jews are really Christians. Paul is just one real guy and his conversion being in a play from 500 BCE is really the work of Satan.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Antie
Skeptic Friend
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 11:54:10 [Permalink]
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> Slater, RD seems to want more verifiable facts than you've given him.
> Can you supply any more?
I have a feeling that RD isn't going to be satisfied with any of the facts that Slater manages to provide him.
Edited by - antie on 08/13/2002 11:54:26 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 11:59:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Slater wrires:
If an E-mail comes back saying that the busts of Apollonius ... are now in the main lobby would that mean that Jesus was the Jewish messiah ... ?
No, nor would it have any relevance to your claim that "the museum of Milan has a good sized exhibit of Apollonius' personal effects." - unless, of course, you want us to believe that our sage counted busts of himself among his personal effects.
For the record, I note no 'non sequitur demands'; the text in red are your statements, not mine.
Edited by - ReasonableDoubt on 08/13/2002 12:01:04 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 12:04:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have a feeling that RD isn't going to be satisfied with any of the facts that Slater manages to provide him.
And I have the same feeling. But the point doesn't seem to be reaching conclusions by observing facts. The dissatisfaction seems to be an end in itself.
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My business is to teach my aspirations to conform themselves to fact, not to try and make facts harmonize with my aspirations. ---Thomas Henry Huxley, 1860 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2002 : 16:09:26 [Permalink]
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RD tends to remind me of a person I've debated with over coffee on several issues that likes to use questions and redirection to avoid answering a direct question.
Ah well...
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...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young |
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