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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2001 : 16:47:51
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Hi everyone! (I posted this on the general forum also)
I'm new to this forum (though not to skepticism), and have a "situation" in which I could use some advice.
I have begun a website project to study ritual weapons: http://weaponspage.homestead.com
Part of the site will be devoted to testing the claims made by some people about the "magic powers" of some of these weapons.
When I first posted about this on SkepticForum at Delphi.com, I was attacked by an individual named Al Carroll who accused my of having a secret, racist agenda of trying to discredit non-white beliefs. I wrote a refutation of his arguments here:
http://weaponspage.homestead.com/refutingrace.html
This Al Carroll managed to get a radical comic book writer to defame me here:
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/stype143.htm
I refuted this guy with a 2nd essay:
http://weaponspage.homestead.com/refutingrace2.html
Now I find that these men, and some of their friends, are threatening me, spreading lies about me to local civic groups in order to "get me fired" from my job as a teacher and "get me expelled" from my university.
Naturally, I have no fear of these threats because they are based on slander. However, I don't think they have the right to threaten me like this and I want to do something to retaliate. Does anyone have any sugggestions? Any options would be appreciated.
Thanks, ruel
PS: For a better summary of the situation, follow the links on this page:
http://weaponspage.homestead.com/critics.html
Edited by - ruel on 06/26/2001 16:48:05
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2001 : 21:29:51 [Permalink]
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Unfortunately, any retaliation ideas that I could offer you would be illegal, and or immoral. Simply debating him (Al Carrol) is the only option.
You do quite well in refuting his claims, but I fear that no amount of reasoned debate will sway him.
Obviously, his favored tactic is the ad hominem, which leads me to beleive that he is quite unable to compose concise, and constructive criticism of your ideas and methods.
At one point in his forum posts he states that you are like those who theorise the ridiculous notion that the Anasazi may have practiced cannibalism.(I'm paraphrasing here)
He is obviously quite attached to the sainthood of native Americans and unwilling to even persue valid theories, if they may reveal a darker side of a native american culture. (emphasis on may and theory)
Science is based on the free exchange of ideas, and Mr Carrol is not interested in any Ideas except the ones that meet with his approval and further his goal of enumerating the favorable aspects of Native american culture.
You have undeservingly stepped into the mire of American Indian Nationalism, for as far as I have seen, you are willing to view all cultures through the same lens, but still have drawn their fire. You haven't even gotten to the meat of your studies and experiments, yet Mr Carrol Launches a poorly aimed barrage of excrement.
I would not take his attacks to heart. He has probably gotten under your skin, but I feel that if you take the high road and, stick to honest and open debate, you need not worry too much about this extremist idiot.
I am eagerly awaiting further postings on your website, this weapons stuff is fascinating.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2001 : 21:40:53 [Permalink]
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I agree with Sega. I could find nothing on your site that deserved the criticism you received. I urge you to continue your work and try not to let situations like this upset you too much because this will, most likely, continue to happen. It's hardly surprising when one leads a sacred cow to slaughter....so to speak 
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2001 : 14:54:59 [Permalink]
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Thanks guys. As I posted to the same thread on the Announcements Forum, I just found out that Yahoo! has forced Carroll to pull the threats off his Club's site.
I'm trying to accomplish two things with the Weapons site -- 1) to document the uses of different ritual weapons, in order to make define general cross-cultural patterns, and 2) to test some specific claims about some of the weapons' magic powers through controlled scientific experiments.
I was fortunate to get to speak with "the man" himself, James Randi, via phone a few months ago and he said that when I had some experimental designs drawn up, he'd have a look at them and help if he could. On the other hand, I've got a helpful network of friends in the collecting world who are lending some very valuable information on history & culture.
The best part of the whole thing is getting all these people together: scientists, magicians, historians, etc. Interdisciplinary dialogue always produces new and fascinating ideas. I suppose the price we pay is in attracting the occasional losers, like Carroll & Schmidt, who think that they can reach the same level when they slander their betters.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 01:40:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
When I first posted about this on SkepticForum at Delphi.com, I was attacked by an individual named Al Carroll who accused my of having a secret, racist agenda..........
Now I find that these men, and some of their friends, are threatening me, spreading lies about me to local civic groups in order to "get me fired" from my job as a teacher and "get me expelled" from my university.
Naturally, I have no fear of these threats because they are based on slander. However, I don't think they have the right to threaten me like this and I want to do something to retaliate. Does anyone have any sugggestions? Any options would be appreciated.
Thanks, ruel
One bit of advice from someone who's been there, done that. It's not the exact same situation as you but I was accused of making threats to someone. Because I said a few nasty ethnic name to her, she actually took me to court the judge of course did not find any credibility with her and nothing came of it ...so far. I absolutly HATE this person and WILL get her back at her but am waiting for the right time. heh he.
My advice is, if you know you are right and it's not going to hurt you or your career, calmly wait it out. Those that know you will understand and those who think ill of you don't matter.
Find a legal way to attack that person so people will see you are the intelligent one.
OR in other words, DON'T GET MAD-GET EVEN!
''You are poised in the moment between thought and result. Put your dollar in the machine or get out of the casino.'' |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2001 : 22:03:25 [Permalink]
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Hi Snake,
Sorry to hear you had to go through that. You should've counter-sued, to recoup the legal expenses!
Speaking of which, I think I will get some advice from the attorney for the students here at the university, just to explore some options. Who knows? Maybe earn some summer cash after all...! ;)
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2001 : 02:05:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hi Snake,
Sorry to hear you had to go through that. You should've counter-sued, to recoup the legal expenses!
Thanks. A lawyer friend was kind enough to explain everything I should do, for free. (lol, see not all lawyers are bad!) He did say he'd have to charge me $200 if he went to court with me, I almost wanted him to but he said I'd be fine and he was right.
But believe me, I have plans to get back at her. And it's ALL legal, heh he.
quote:
Speaking of which, I think I will get some advice from the attorney for the students here at the university, just to explore some options. Who knows? Maybe earn some summer cash after all...! ;)
Yea, it never hurts to get as much advice as possible. If even only to confirm what others have said.
Good luck.
Oh! BTW, I like to be very existential about things like that. I learn from every expierence. I even got to tell the judge I won't swear to god or on a bible so they gave me a different oath to say.
''You are poised in the moment between thought and result. Put your dollar in the machine or get out of the casino.'' |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2001 : 15:03:03 [Permalink]
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1. It's cool the judge let you do that. If I tried that here in Texas, it would amount to conceding the case!
2. Hey, you're not Thai, are you? I was being nosy, looking into your profile, and saw you liked the band Carabao. Honestly, I don't know anything about the band itself, but my cousins in Bangkok love 'em.
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2001 : 17:19:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
1. It's cool the judge let you do that. If I tried that here in Texas, it would amount to conceding the case!
I thought we had that right here in the USA. I could be wrong.
I was a bit hesitant to ask, you do never know if a judge is going to be influenced, even though they are not supposed to. But I kind of sized up the situation at the time for one thing. Next I decided that he would respect me more and possibly think I'm more truthful if I admit I won't lie and take an oath I don't believe in.
quote:
2. Hey, you're not Thai, are you? I was being nosy, looking into your profile, and saw you liked the band Carabao. Honestly, I don't know anything about the band itself, but my cousins in Bangkok love 'em.
Nope, sorry, I'm not Thai, I'm white. My spouse is, actually Chinese by ancestry but born in Thailand.
@tomic made that web site for me. Isn't he nice? It was the 1st site about them at the time. Since then more people have put up info about them. They ARE great. Thanks.
Email me at SnkEys@aol.com if you'd like to talk more. I would like to talk to you. I'm a simi-expert about Thailand, ha ha and you've got my interest now.
Sawadee
"It's all hype, until you prove it"
T. |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2001 : 16:13:56 [Permalink]
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Hi Snake,
If you're even a semi-expert, you're more of an expert than I am. But I do know that nearly all Thai from the Bangkok area, including my immediate ancestors, are part Chinese, though they don't want to admit it. After all, the site began as a Chinese trading colony.
I'll email you shortly. Since we both have enemies to deal with via the courts, perhaps we can share strategy. "The enemy of my friend is my enemy," right? ;)
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2001 : 02:36:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hi Snake,
If you're even a semi-expert, you're more of an expert than I am. But I do know that nearly all Thai from the Bangkok area, including my immediate ancestors, are part Chinese, though they don't want to admit it. After all, the site began as a Chinese trading colony.
I think there is still some debate about that but from the theory I've read [in a book by David Wyatt] the Thais are a separate tribe although they did migrate down from China. We can talk more about that too if you'd like. I don't know a lot about it though. He was tracing the language and how it changed dialects when they went into Laos and Viet Nam, etc. thousands of years ago.
quote:
I'll email you shortly. Since we both have enemies to deal with via the courts, perhaps we can share strategy. "The enemy of my friend is my enemy," right? ;)
 Yes.
Thank you, I owe you an email, haven't gotten around to composing it back to you yet.
Until later,
NL
"It's all hype, until you prove it"
T. |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2001 : 12:29:18 [Permalink]
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You're talking about Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History," right? Good book, even though my mother (my Thai half) doesn't like it because it doesn't match the "official" Thai view of their origins.
The Thai like to think they descend from the Kingdom of Nan Chao (Nanzhao)/ Dali in present-day Chinese Yunnan. But linguistic and anthropological evidence doesn't support that claim. It's probably more true that they got their Theravada Buddhism from Dali.
Yet the claim persists because it makes for good historiography: The Thai, a refined and peaceful people, were forced by aggressive Chinese imperialism to abandon their ancestral lands. Yet in the face of this onslaught, they made a heroic stand to retain their freedom against other oppressive empires (Burma, the Khmer, etc.) and established "Muang Thai," the "Land of the Free."
It's all very romantic and full of national pride. But I don't take it at face value...!
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2001 : 03:23:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
You're talking about Wyatt's "Thailand: A Short History," right? Good book, even though my mother (my Thai half) doesn't like it because it doesn't match the "official" Thai view of their origins.
Way Cool! You know that book, didn't think many would. I still owe you that email, sorry. But you beat me to it, I wanted to ask if you are Thai. Wasn't clear about that. They are also a confussing people, ha ha. That must be your Thai 1/2 that's not telling me everything all at once.
Kun Pood Thai? Yu Te Ni? Cry ja yu?!! We must talk.
Chun bahn, not too far from Wat Thai, te ne North Hollywood.
"It's all hype, until you prove it"
T. |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2001 : 00:26:45 [Permalink]
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1. "Kun Pood Thai? Yu Te Ni?"
I'm here in Texas, Ft. Worth to be exact. Last time I was in LA was Summer '97, the week before I took off for China.
You might know one of my uncles in the area (Santa Monica last time I checked), though I'm not sure what name he goes by in the Thai community (you know how Thais never use their real names, but instead use those single-syllable nicknames!). He's got two sons, my cousins, that're probably in their teens by now.
Also have some Flip relatives in Santa Barbara.
2. Wyatt's book is the only one on Thailand that's ever available at regular bookstores. Fortunately, it's good. I love all the political intrigue, especially during the time of Naresuan, and the famous "1688 Revolution" with King Narai.
If you ever get to Thailand itself, White Lotus Co. publishes lots of good history books, including translations of old texts, 19thc. stuff, and modern academic works. I bought plenty when I was there and enjoyed them all.
Edited by - ruel on 07/11/2001 00:31:35 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2001 : 02:29:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Last time I was in LA was Summer '97, the week before I took off for China.
If you ever come out here again I'll give you my phone #. We can have cha yen te hong ahan.
quote:
You might know one of my uncles in the area (Santa Monica last time I checked), though I'm not sure what name he goes by in the Thai community (you know how Thais never use their real names, but instead use those single-syllable nicknames!).
LOL, yes. I have some Thai friends whom I've known for over 20 years and don't know their last names. Now that I think of it, I think the Thais invented 'networking'. If you want to talk to someone you tell a friend and he tells another friend, etc.
My father used to have a business in Santa Monica but I don't get out there often now. Funny though, I was just there the other day for an art show.
quote:
He's got two sons, my cousins, that're probably in their teens by now.
My son is 17 but I doubt if he'd know them. Do they ever go to Wat Thai? I used to go there a lot and knew all the monks but haven't been there lately.
quote:
Also have some Flip relatives in Santa Barbara.
We have a Thai friend who has a sister who used to live in that area but I don't know where she is now. Maybe she knows your relatives. I'll be moving near there but now for about a year.
quote:
2. Wyatt's book is the only one on Thailand that's ever available at regular bookstores. Fortunately, it's good. I love all the political intrigue, especially during the time of Naresuan, and the famous "1688 Revolution" with King Narai.
Ad, the leader of the band 'Carabao' wrote a song about him. Cool tune, you should hear it. I'd be happy to make a tape and send it to you. It's one of there heavy metal type sounds.
quote:
If you ever get to Thailand itself, White Lotus Co. publishes lots of good history books, including translations of old texts, 19thc. stuff, and modern academic works. I bought plenty when I was there and enjoyed them all.
Thanks, I'll chk it out. I've been to Thailand more times then I can remember. In fact we are talking about maybe going again at the end of the year.
Later.
"It's all hype, until you prove it"
T. |
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ruel
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2001 : 21:16:42 [Permalink]
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1. "we are talking about maybe going again at the end of the year"
Hey, hold onto that thought, 'cause a friend and I were thinking of doing the same thing!
She's been to Malaysia 3 times in the last two years and always wanted to head on to the "City of Angels," but didn't know if they spoke English there(!?!?!). Keep us posted if you start making plans...
2."the leader of the band 'Carabao' wrote a song about him."
When I first read that, I thought, "Why'd they write a song about Wyatt?" :)
It's good to know that somebody's still doing heavy metal. It's pretty much dead here in America, and now even Metallica's sold out and has started making sucky albums... :(
3. Truth is, I don't know anything about what my relatives do in LA; I never talk to them. My uncle's an architect is all I know, and he is pretty active in the Thai community from what I gather. Even does the whole racquetball/golf/tennis thing -- like some kind of Thai yuppie! :O
But yeah, we should definitely try to get connected somehow. I've been meaning to take a road trip out to California, but with all this stuff I have going on, December is the earliest possibility. But we'll see what comes about!
Edited by - ruel on 07/11/2001 21:24:18 |
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