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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
 Posted - 11/01/2002 : 13:49:20 [Permalink]
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DA:quote:
RD states like a broken record:
RD:quote:
Unfortunately, but predictably, that was not a proper sentence.
Please stop this kind of post, it adds nothing to the discussion. RD: Darwin Alogos writes in a "spoken" style, which is not a problem. DA: your petulant retorts (which are sometimes provoked) are only harmful to your point.
-me. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2002 : 23:17:17 [Permalink]
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Had anyone seriously suggested that Jesus didn't exist?
I suppose there are some crazies who doubted it, but no, not really.
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Actually Slater this is how the REAL WORLD views your cultic reinterpretation of history
You seem to be very confused, as usual. So let me try to straighten you out. I've spent the whole day replying to letters grade school children have sent me…so one more shouldn't hurt.
What the Editor of Biblical Archeology magazine said was that any body that disagrees with his opinion is crazy. He makes this insult because he has nothing to stand on. There is no biblical archeological evidence that there was a Jesus. This is a statement of the Editor's religious faith and an admission of his failing as a historian. It is pure bluster.
And it is exactly the same thing that the Emperor in the Hans Christian Andersen story said about people who couldn't see his new clothes.
I am not a member of a cult of any sort. The view I express is one commonly held amongst those who have bothered to read classical mythology.
for Petes sake Slater you still can't come out denial that G.A.Wells gave up on your Pagan Copycat Jesus
First you are misrepresenting Wells, whom I'm sure you have never read. Wells holds that Jesus the Christ is a rip off of classical mythology. He states that there might have been a historic Jesus the human…maybe…but there is no record to prove that there was one and it really couldn't matter less if there was because he wasn't a god.
Secondly I am not expressing Wells' opinions. I am expressing my own conclusions based on my own research. Which I conducted independently of Wells and before he had published. His research is far more extensive than mine but mine is quite sufficient for the task at hand.
The research is very simple and quite enjoyable to do. You simply read classical mythology.
The conclusion I have reached is that though there might have been a historic Jesus the guy every story we have is based on a mythical deity with not enough left over to even suggest any historic debris for this mythical concretion to form on. Leaving us no reason to consider the slim possibility of an historic Jesus.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2002 : 19:27:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
The research is very simple and quite enjoyable to do. You simply read classical mythology.
I would hope there is more to it than that. Such as reading the gospels themselves, and reading the Hebraic tales upon which they are largely based.
quote:
Originally posted by Slater
The conclusion I have reached is that though there might have been a historic Jesus the guy every story we have is based on a mythical deity with not enough left over to even suggest any historic debris for this mythical concretion to form on. Leaving us no reason to consider the slim possibility of an historic Jesus.
I went through the gospel of Mark and took out the bits which looked to me like obvious mythical additions and miraculous events (besides "faith healings"). I ended up with plenty of possible historic debris, roughly three/fifths of the gospel, in fact.
http://www.positiveatheist.com/AOK/writings/essays/mark_expurgated.html |
-- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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| Edited by - tergiversant on 11/20/2002 19:28:07 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 08:58:23 [Permalink]
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What "Hebraic tales" is it based on? It anti-semitic for Pete's sake.
I don't get the point of the URL-Mark expurgated. How is it expurgated? How come Mithric and Dionysian myths are still incorporated in it?
The problem seems to be that you haven't read the classical myths and so don't know them when you see them. And I get the feeling that you haven't read the "Hebraic tales" either but are taking Xians word that they exist. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 10:34:23 [Permalink]
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Moakley states:[/b] A reinterpretation of a fabrication that relies firmly on faith for validation. So much for reality. If,as you claim, have followed this thread for some time then you must have read how when I pointed out that when you compare the NT documents with the normal methods of historical research the NT is vindicated hands down(1.the bibliographic 2.the internal test 3.the external test).I will not repeat all the evidence again it,like the Truth in the X-Files,is out there.Next you will have noticed that when I've asked Slater for ANYcompetent HISTORIANS or CLASSICAL scholars who share his iconoclastic views all we get is silence .It has also been pointed that the opposite is true when we canvas the historians and classical scholars as to the historical existence of the Jesus of the NT(which is what this thread is about). - Michael Grant
A.E.Sherwin White- G,R.Watson
C.K. Barrett- J.M.Roberts
J.W.Montgomery - John Boardman
Jasper Griffen- Oswyn Murry
Edwin M. Yamauchi- Sir Willam Ramsay
F.F.Bruce - R.T.France
Gordon Wenham- G.E.Ladd
H.IMarshall
So when you claim I "have yet to present a compelling argument to change your mind " my first response is "change from what ?".Surely not from Slaterism?Or to put it another way, how much or what kind of [b]Evidence would it take for you to come to the same conclusion as the Historical/Classical Scholars I've listed above as to at LEAST acknowledge the Historical Existence of the Jesus of the NT(I'm not asking you to accept all the miracles ect...right now just his existence as a historical person) |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 11/21/2002 10:47:31 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 15:17:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
I will not repeat all the evidence again it,like the Truth in the X-Files,is out there.
So, the "Truth" in the NT is like the "Truth" in the "X-Files".
I'm more than willing to accept this as an accurate comparison. It's good to see you coming around. 
As for the rest, the evidence is either entirely circumstantial, suspect, or both, while your contribution here is nothing more than argumentum ad numerum. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 11/21/2002 15:19:07 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 15:25:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tergiversant
I would hope there is more to it than that. Such as reading the gospels themselves, and reading the Hebraic tales upon which they are largely based. ... I went through the gospel of Mark and took out the bits which looked to me like obvious mythical additions and miraculous events (besides "faith healings"). I ended up with plenty of possible historic debris, roughly three/fifths of the gospel, in fact.
I too am curious: what "possible historic debris" in gMk do you find probative, and upon what "Hebraic tales" was the remaining two/fifths based? |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 16:21:09 [Permalink]
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1.the bibliographic 2.the internal test 3.the external test
I thought we had covered this. The NT fails all of these tests.
1) Bibliographic: there is no "bibliography," that is no other record of the events in the NT. There are no NT's from the right time period or written in the languages of the region.
2) Internal test: Stories don't match.
Three days after leaving John the Baptist Jesus is fasting in a desert/eating desert and drinking wine at a party. The resurrection takes 1 day/40 days. It happens in two places 80 miles apart. Judas is remorseful, kills self / unremorseful, god causes him to explode / has done nothing to be remorseful about, nothing happen to him.
3) External Test: Fails. All religious sites associated with Jesus were discovered by "divine revelation" and are meaningless.
Surely even you must realize that in all your cut and pastes, with all your name calling, with all of your phoney assed "experts" you have not presented a single shred of evidence for an historic Jesus. Look as hard as you have for all these months and you still come up empty. And all you need is just that one piece of evidence to shut me up. The reason you come up empty is the reason we all came up empty in the search for the historic Jesus. There is no evidence to find. The truth is out there alright. The truth is that Jesus is a fictional character. The LEAST you can do is acknowledge the fiction.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 11/21/2002 16:23:50 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 19:37:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
(I'm not asking you to accept all the miracles ect...right now just his existence as a historical person)
I stand by my original statement you have not made your case as convincingly as Slate, ReasonableDoubt and others. "Sum Ergo Cogito"
Slaterism - a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas, no sacred cows allowed. In other words, Slaterism is a method, not a position. Modern Slaterism is embodied in the scientific method, that involves gathering data to formulate and test naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena. A claim becomes factual when it is confirmed to such an extent it would be reasonable to offer temporary agreement. But all facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore Slaterism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. The key to slaterism is to continuously and vigorously apply the methods of science to navigate the treacherous straits between "know nothing" skepticism and "anything goes" credulity. (From Skeptic Magazine FAQ with a few modifications)
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 11/21/2002 19:40:04 |
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 21:01:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
How come Mithric and Dionysian myths are still incorporated in it?
Just let me know which ones I left in and I'll take them out. Please be specific. |
-- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 22:05:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
What "Hebraic tales" is it based on? It anti-semitic for Pete's sake.
Much has been written on this subject, but probably the most complete work is that by Dale Miller:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0889466211/inktomi-bkasin-20/002-7611367-5550412
For some specific examples, see Zechariah 9:9, Psalms 41:9, and Psalm 16:10-11 which may have provided inspiration for the triumphal entry, Judas the betrayer, and the resurrection, respectively.
More clearly is the transfiguration event rooted in Hebrew midrash, and with it the other two heavenly events in Mark's cosmic triptych: the renting of the Temple veil and the renting of the heavens at Jesus' baptism. It may take me a awhile to explain this in detail, if you are interested. |
-- tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org
"Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione."
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 23:25:18 [Permalink]
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Must I do your homework for you?
Sigh. What say I just point you in the right directions? Would that be alright with you?
To start with John is the English version of the Latin Johannes, which is the name of the Greek God Ioannes whose name in the 1st to 4th Centuries was Oannes. The God Ea (Capricorn), half human half fish, the dichotomy that represents renewed life of God (Zeus). His ceremony was baptism. Mithra was born in that sign.
The Jews do have a similar ceremony that dates back to this ceremony from when they were polytheists. However by the 1st Century they were quite distinct. The NT says nothing about any mikveh. But it does talk about baptism--the Pagan version. Not only baptism but baptism performed but the God of Baptism, John. All Magi had to be baptized.
The 12 Apostles are lifted from Mithra.
Healing fever by placing hand on head, curing paralyzed man lifted from Apollonious of Tyana
Pharisees complaining, scorn for fasting, scorn for Saturday Sabbath ---Roman anti-Semitism.
Preaching from boat due to crowd--- Apollonious of Tyana and Dionysus (A probably taken from D)
Jews accuse Jesus of being possessed by Beelzebub; Jesus scorns his mom and brothers; to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that "they may be ever seeing but never perceiving; Lamp on a Stand; Parable of the Growing Seed ---Roman anti-Semitism.
Parable of the Mustard Seed---just plain stupid. Somebody never saw a mustard plant.
Calms the Storm---Dionysus
Take nothing for the journey except a staff---Apollonious of Tyana
Beheading JtB--- Roman anti-Semitism.
Loaves and fish---are the communion "host" of the Mithrain mass. Magi (Mithrain Priest) would produce them by magic (where the word magic comes from)
Sick wanting to touch hem of toga--- Apollonious of Tyana
Dirty hands at the dinner table/ accusations of hypocrisy--- Roman anti-Semitism.
Peter the rock---Mithra
Cure of deaf Mute--- Apollonious of Tyana
Divorce---Dionysus
Little kids---?
Rich Young Man---Roman class system support
Cure for blindness--- Apollonious of Tyana
Crowd with palms---Dionysus
Curse of fig---later addition, slam of Mithrains who had accused Xians of stealing their religion
Riot in temple--- Roman anti-Semitism
Faith moves mountain---shameless self promotion
Second coming, 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' --Mithra
Jesus Arrested, Sanhedrin, --- Roman anti-Semitism
Crucifixion---Mithra
At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour--- a line from the classic stage play Prometheus Bound
I'm getting tired of this. All you have done is write out the f**king gospel. This list will give you the places to look. But if you aren't going to read the stories of Mithra, Dionysus and Apollonius then stop complaining to me that you don't know them. Amazon dot com or a decent public library will fix you right up.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2002 : 23:42:20 [Permalink]
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For some specific examples, see Zechariah 9:9, Psalms 41:9, and Psalm 16:10-11 which may have provided inspiration for the triumphal entry, Judas the betrayer, and the resurrection, respectively.
Zech 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore
41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
You've got to be kidding me. Maybe I need to find Miller's book because these verses from the OT aren't ever straws to grasp at. They are nothing.
May I ask your religious affiliations? I'm guessing Southern Baptist. Why do you get E-mail sent to Oklahoma Atheists?
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2002 : 06:52:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Zech 9:9
This is misquoted in John 12:15. Is this what you mean when saying that they are based on Hebraic tales? Is there more to it than just a cut-and-paste job (poorly done) of a few quotes in a few places?
If the overlying story is pretty much a retelling of an older (non-Hebraic) myth, for instance, simply placing a (mis)quote from the OT in the middle somewhere wouldn't make it "based on a Hebraic tale", I would think. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2002 : 08:47:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tergiversant
More clearly is the transfiguration event rooted in Hebrew midrash...
Let me guess: you're not Jewish. On any given issue, you will typically find 4 instances of "Hebrew midrash" for every 3 Rabbis consulted. As for the rest, to quote Slater: "You've got to be kidding." To note that a theology that embraces the Tanach as Canon occasionally strains to find some justification in the Tanach is, at best, underwhelming. You've discovered only that Christianity is syncretic. Thanks for sharing ... |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
| Edited by - ConsequentAtheist on 11/22/2002 08:52:52 |
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