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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 16:38:25 [Permalink]
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Actually, Iraq is quite possibly the most secular nation in the region already. I don't follow your argument. It's this let's do some bad things for a good cause that got us into 9/11 in the first place. Even the result you seek is already there. It's just not the dictatorship you prefer? I don't like the taste of any of that sorry.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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TEDPOX
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 19:39:57 [Permalink]
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I just posted a "rant" directly relating to this poll in the General Discussion Forum. I feel I made some good, albeit rambling, points as did many of you here on this topic. I only wish I could be as articulate as I see many of you. Some things just pluck a sour nerve with me. I also feel passionately about certain subjects that it affects my emotions. I am absolutely opposed to the US continuing to occupy land that doesn't concern us. I am thoroughly disgusted with the mentality of my countrymen and their "gung ho" attitude toward killing people then complain about guns on the streets and in our schools. If I had said the same things about Dubyah that he says in the same context about Saddam and Iraq I would be in jail while Georgie is hailed as a hero. I can't go around threatening people but here he goes and threatens a country, mind you.
I was thinking about this the other day while I was watching Benny Hinn. A few years ago I thought there was a typo in the TV Guide and that Benny Hill was back on the air. Awesome! I thought. But at 11:00 in the morning. Then again, you can't have classic euro-smut too early in the day. Wouldn't you agree? Anyway, I discovered Mr. Hinn and realize I want to meet this man just so I can go down in history as The Man That Bitch-Slapped Benny Hinn. What a badge of honour I would wear that as. I don't care if I was labeled as another angry atheist. The point of me rambling here again is that I want to, also, have the title The Man That Bitch-Slapped Dubyah. I don't plan on running for political office any time soon and a few nights in jail and labeled by every government security agency as a dangerous subversive really wouldn't be so bad. After all the interviews with the networks, book signings, royalties, TV movie deals and celebrity-hood I would be sitting pretty well on a pile of greenbacks while thumbing my nose at George and...
I think I'll just shut up now and stop rambling. I really need to learn to make a point. |
I've had about enough of me. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 20:04:39 [Permalink]
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Found this on the web, this senator may end up being arrested, presumed guilty before being proved innocent whilst suffering the consequences of being placed indefinitely in prison without trial.
Who needs civil liberties????
quote: Reckless Administration May Reap Disastrous Consequences by US Senator Robert Byrd Senate Floor Speech - Wednesday, February 12, 2003 To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. On this February day, as this nation stands at the brink of battle, every American on some level must be contemplating the horrors of war.
Yet, this Chamber is, for the most part, silent -- ominously, dreadfully silent. There is no debate, no discussion, no attempt to lay out for the nation the pros and cons of this particular war. There is nothing.
We stand passively mute in the United States Senate, paralyzed by our own uncertainty, seemingly stunned by the sheer turmoil of events. Only on the editorial pages of our newspapers is there much substantive discussion of the prudence or imprudence of engaging in this particular war.
And this is no small conflagration we contemplate. This is no simple attempt to defang a villain. No. This coming battle, if it materializes, represents a turning point in U.S. foreign policy and possibly a turning point in the recent history of the world.
This nation is about to embark upon the first test of a revolutionary doctrine applied in an extraordinary way at an unfortunate time. The doctrine of preemption -- the idea that the United States or any other nation can legitimately attack a nation that is not imminently threatening but may be threatening in the future -- is a radical new twist on the traditional idea of self defense. It appears to be in contravention of international law and the UN Charter. And it is being tested at a time of world-wide terrorism, making many countries around the globe wonder if they will soon be on our -- or some other nation's -- hit list. High level Administration figures recently refused to take nuclear weapons off of the table when discussing a possible attack against Iraq. What could be more destabilizing and unwise than this type of uncertainty, particularly in a world where globalism has tied the vital economic and security interests of many nations so closely together? There are huge cracks emerging in our time-honored alliances, and U.S. intentions are suddenly subject to damaging worldwide speculation. Anti-Americanism based on mistrust, misinformation, suspicion, and alarming rhetoric from U.S. leaders is fracturing the once solid alliance against global terrorism which existed after September 11.
Here at home, people are warned of imminent terrorist attacks with little guidance as to when or where such attacks might occur. Family members are being called to active military duty, with no idea of the duration of their stay or what horrors they may face. Communities are being left with less than adequate police and fire protection. Other essential services are also short-staffed. The mood of the nation is grim. The economy is stumbling. Fuel prices are rising and may soon spike higher.
This Administration, now in power for a little over two years, must be judged on its record. I believe that that record is dismal.
In that scant two years, this Administration has squandered a large projected surplus of some $5.6 trillion over the next decade and taken us to projected deficits as far as the eye can see. This Administration's domestic policy has put many of our states in dire financial condition, under funding scores of essential programs for our people. This Administration has fostered policies which have slowed economic growth. This Administration has ignored urgent matters such as the crisis in health care for our elderly. This Administration has been slow to provide adequate funding for homeland security. This Administration has been reluctant to better protect our long and porous borders.
In foreign policy, this Administration has failed to find Osama bin Laden. In fact, just yesterday we heard from him again marshaling his forces and urging them to kill. This Administration has split traditional alliances, possibly crippling, for all time, International order-keeping entities like the United Nations and NATO. This Administration has called into question the traditional worldwide perception of the United States as well-intentioned, peacekeeper. This Administration has turned the patient art of diplomacy into threats, labeling, and name calling of the sort that reflects quite poorly on the intelligence and sensitivity of our leaders, and which will have consequences for years to come.
Calling heads of state pygmies, labeling whole countries as evil, denigrating powerful European allies as irrelevant -- these types of crude insensitivities can do our great nation no good. We may have massive military might, but we cannot fight a global war on terrorism alone. We need the cooperation and friendship of our time-honored allies as well as the newer found friends whom we can attract with our wealth. Our awesome military machine will do us little good if we suffer another devastating attack on our homeland which severely damages our economy. Our military manpower is already stretched thin and we will need the augmenting support of those nations who can supply troop strength, not just sign letters cheering us on.
The war in Afghanistan has cost us $37 billion so far, yet there is evidence that terrorism may already be starting to regain its hold in that region. We have not found bin Laden, and unless we secure the peace in Afghanistan, the dark dens of terrorism may yet again flourish in that remote and devastated land.
Pakistan as well is at risk of destabilizing forces. This Administration has not finished the first war against terrorism and yet it is eager to embark on another conflict with perils much greater than those in Afghanistan. Is our attention span that short? Have we not learned that after winning the war one must always secure the peace?
And yet we hear little about the aftermath of war in Iraq. In the absence of plans, speculation abroad is rife. Will we seize Iraq's oil fields, becoming an occupying power which controls the price and supply of that nation's oil for the foreseeable future? To whom do we propose to hand the reigns of power after Saddam Hussein?
Will our war inflame the Muslim world resulting in devastating attacks on Israel? Will Israel retaliate with its own nuclear arsenal? Will the Jordanian and Saudi Arabian governments be toppled by radicals, bolstered by Iran which has much closer ties to terrorism than Iraq?
Could a disruption of the world's oil supply lead to a world-wide recession? Has our senselessly bellicose language and our callous disregard of the interests and opinions of other nations increased the global race to join the nuclear club and made proliferation an even more lucrative practice for nations which need the income?
In only the space of two short years this reckless and arrogant Administration has initiated policies which may reap disastrous consequences for years.
One can understand the anger and shock of any President after the savage attacks of September 11. One can appreciate the frustration of having only a shadow to chase and an amorphous, fleeting enemy on which it is nearly impossible to exact retribution.
But to turn one's frustration and anger into the kind of extremely destabilizing and dangerous foreign policy debacle that the world is currently witnessing is inexcusable from any Administr |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 20:06:38 [Permalink]
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And whilst I'm at it, all those tanks in Washington and at Heathrow are proof that we are winning the war on terrorism......
The world is a fucking joke and more and more I'm placing the blame right at the feet of George W Bush!!!! |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 20:39:52 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by @tomic
Actually, Iraq is quite possibly the most secular nation in the region already. I don't follow your argument. It's this let's do some bad things for a good cause that got us into 9/11 in the first place. Even the result you seek is already there. It's just not the dictatorship you prefer? I don't like the taste of any of that sorry.
@tomic
What was I thinking...? You blew away all my reasons. All that remains is the person cult around Saddam and his dictatorship. The latest country wide poll he made to see if his people believed in him as a leader gave him 100%. But since there were armed poll-officials showing each voter which alternative to check before putting their vote in the box, I'm not very surprized of the outcome. It gives me a deja-vu... Like Europe a number of decades ago. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..." Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq: Send them unarmed civilians for target practice.. Collateralmurder. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 21:29:21 [Permalink]
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quote: Like Europe a number of decades ago.
I agree wholeheartedly. The pity is that my taxes pay for the Nazi war machine of the 21st century and the panzer tanks fly the stars and stripes.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 11:35:25 [Permalink]
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quote: Found this on the web, this senator may end up being arrested, presumed guilty before being proved innocent whilst suffering the consequences of being placed indefinitely in prison without trial.
Who needs civil liberties????
Senator Byrd is one strange Byrd. Being from eastern Kentucky right next to West Virginia the home state of Byrd I have been quite informed of his long career in the Senate. There are days I could hug the man and there are days I could slap the shat out of him. I can say he is an old coot who doesn't care too much what others think when he expresses his opinions and today would be one of those hugging days. Senatory Byrd may be the closest thing we have to a true voice of reason in the senate on this issue, although some democratic politics are behind his motives of course.
I have to say that was one great speech. |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 08:23:11 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by gezzam Found this on the web, this senator may end up being arrested, presumed guilty before being proved innocent whilst suffering the consequences of being placed indefinitely in prison without trial. <snip>quote: Reckless Administration May Reap Disastrous Consequences by US Senator Robert Byrd Senate Floor Speech - Wednesday, February 12, 2003 (emphasis added by Comp. Org)
To contemplate war is to think about the most horrible of human experiences. <snipity, snipity snip: LOTS of snipage!> Our challenge is to now find a graceful way out of a box of our own making. Perhaps there is still a way if we allow more time.
You forgot the most important aspect, gezzam.
An often forgotten part of the Supreme Law of the United States reads:quote: "The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, beprivileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place." (Article I, Section 6, Clause 1) (Emphasis added by Comp Org)
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 09:29:43 [Permalink]
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quote: You forgot the most important aspect, gezzam.
An often forgotten part of the Supreme Law of the United States reads: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, beprivileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place." (Article I, Section 6, Clause 1) (Emphasis added by Comp Org) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh come on give me a break......
I have enough trouble keeping up with constitutional laws in Australia, let alone keep up with US Supreme Court laws....
Point taken, I will cram that into what is left of my alcohol ridden brain |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Radar
New Member
United Kingdom
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2003 : 16:05:34 [Permalink]
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War should be a last resort, Iraq kills it's own people but having a war is going to kill more.
More talking and discussing how to help the Iraqi people get rid of both saddam and his maniac son should be on the agenda |
Tact is the ability to tell a man he has an open mind when he has a hole in his head.
I spy with my little eye a UFO, Unattached fit object. |
Edited by - Radar on 02/21/2003 16:08:43 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 05:50:49 [Permalink]
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For the first time in months, I just posted at JREF on this topic. What I was mostly concerned with, other than the general JREF lack of citation, and the condescending attitudes of several posters, was the question of consideration concerning the root causes of the many conflicts we face in the Middle East. I don't mean Saddam's non-compliance with UN resolutions or WMDs, but what are the conditions that allow a man like Saddam to come to power in the first place? Why is there so much antagonism against the US in the Islaamic world? And, if we find and address these problems, will it really do any good? Or, could it be the magic bullet we've been looking for?
Personally, I think that the real reasons why any nation does anything has too little to do with what is right or wrong, or best in the long run, but rather what is more expedient at the moment. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 07:53:11 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by gezzam
quote: You forgot the most important aspect, gezzam.
An often forgotten part of the Supreme Law of the United States reads:
quote:
"The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place." (Article I, Section 6, Clause 1) (Emphasis added by Comp Org)
Oh come on give me a break......
I have enough trouble keeping up with constitutional laws in Australia, let alone keep up with US Supreme Court laws....
Point taken, I will cram that into what is left of my alcohol ridden brain
It has taken me this long, gezzam, to realize what you meant.
Yes, I knew that you were the Humour Moderator; my posting was pretty much a joke: Everybody here in the Union complains about the Congress, whether they talk on the floor or at a money-grubbing FundRaiser.
On the other hand: Thanks (--I think--) for your post. It caused me to revisit the Constitution of the U.S. and discover that I have been in "denial" for the past 10-15 years.
I had believed that the Constitution was the "Supreme Law of the U.S." whereas the real truth is:quote: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. (Clause 2, Article VI)
Ugh! Ugh!! Ugh!!!
All these years, I have been pretending to myself (and to others) that we had a superior form of government---with a fixed, stable "Supreme Law", namely the Constitution.
"To thy own self be true"??? What a fraud am I!! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2003 : 08:08:25 [Permalink]
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Some interesting stuff:
http://www.merip.org/ |
I know the rent is in arrears The dog has not been fed in years It's even worse than it appears But it's alright- Jerry Garcia Robert Hunter
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 06:34:49 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by Computer Org
A wery, wery, wery complex issue.
I think that I'll abstain for a while.
Ah, well. Time goes on; activity occurs.
Still: If anything, I think that the situation in Iraq has grown even more complex than it was when I first decided to abstain.
War in Iraq? I think that I will continue to abstain for a wee bit longer. |
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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rantanplan
New Member
Greece
25 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2003 : 11:18:17 [Permalink]
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i thing u all should see "the thin red line" (i don t know if i translate it well) before u answer this question (41% says yes??)
beside that we all remember the end of the other attempt of USA to (which is the right word? lets say: ) defeat housein s regime...first the usa government promised to the half of the iraqian people that if they stood up to/against Housein, they would help them and they would give them peace and food. And do u remember which was the result? the iraqi people who didn t like Housein, they rebelled against him, saddam stayed there and after a little while they were or mysteriously executed... my opinion? u can t fight war with war...i don t know which is the right way to deal with a situation like this, but sure not war!!! would u like to be killed, only because your country is a crucial geographic location, where many economic interests are at stake? and the argument "but we want to help the people there, so that they can have peace.." it s not very convincing..there are so many -how do u call them- dictatorships, monarchists around the world, and nobody cares..why? i m still wondering...bitter lol
sorry for my english, i ll try to blow the dust away
I edited it to write blow correctly
--------- see u tomorrow |
u talking to me? |
Edited by - rantanplan on 06/17/2003 14:59:22 |
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