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Terryt88
Skeptic Friend
USA
120 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2002 : 15:09:23
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quote:
“Not simply gifts or favors for which one should be grateful, but claims against society, as represented by its government, which may be demanded or insisted upon without embarrassment.”(Feinberg, quoted by Soroos "Beyond Sovereignty")
“..a human right is something any person is entitled to expect from its society.” (Henkin, quoted by Soroos "Beyond Sovereignty")
The International Bill of Human Rights consists of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and its two Optional Protocols. (quoted from website)http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs2.htm
You say the term Human Rights(HR) to most people and they would tell you that it is an essential componant to the idea of any government. I would be one of these. Individual people have rights that extend beyond any laws that are created by man.
However, I conceed that many cultures differ from the one I was brought up in and may not have the same feelings where Human Rights are concerned.
So my questions are these:
- Are there universal HR that transcend states and culture, or only HR that are relative to individual cultures?
- Can there ever be fundamental social or economic rights?
- Can a line be drawn to rights that are universal and those that should be left up to individual states?
Thanks for your time.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 11/15/2002 : 16:14:14 [Permalink]
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I think rights are just relative to a culture. I believe that medical care is a basic human right but here in the US many see it as a for-profit venture. Even doctors that take their hypocrite oath. Much of the world sees it as I do and they provide at least some level of health care for their citizens, rich or poor. Here in the US it's one excuse after another usually involving one or more examples of poor logic. Here in the US we talk about basic human rights for Americans then turn around and support other nations that deny their citizens the rights we enjoy. A lot of our tax money goes to these governments so that they may find it easier to deny their citizens rights. If you open the newspaper you will no doubt find some sort of discussion on the erosion of the rights of US citizens. You may have a right or two less by the time you finish reading this...
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 16:20:43 [Permalink]
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In my experience, no degree of philosophical assertion is enough to make me recognize "fundamental" rights, or "inherent" morality. It may be my own limitation, but, no matter how verbosely someone tries to explain it, I can no more get my head around "universal" rights or morals than I can "fundamental" laws of logic.
First, a little digression. Theists of various kinds maintain that an objective morality requires a transcendent, omnipotent being that pronounces something 'moral' or 'immoral.' But, as is clear to anyone, these pronouncements are not objective in the sense that they are universally applied, or even universally obvious. There are Bible-ignorant societies that not only do not condemn homosexuality, but are blithely unaware that, scripturally, it should be condemned. The only way I see to shoehorn morals into an 'objective' label is to say these are things that, should you do them, will definitely get you sent to hell (ignoring, for the sake of simplicity, the notion of salvation, repentance, etc). Somehow, I don't think most Christians would appreciate this type of 'objectivity.'
Just for completeness, "laws" of logic are wholly different in that they seem to describe states-of-affairs wherein the absence of one or more "law(s)" presents a literally unthinkable proposition. Since, in general, things that objectively exist could objectively not exist without causing a contradiction, I find the 'objectivity' label inadequate here, as well.
Now I think appeals to "universal human rights" fall victim to the same "morals" objection I just noted. There appears to be no way to say how they might objectively exist. It is unlikely that any standard of "degree to which we should confer rights" is built-in to all humans. It is unlikely that God, or anything else, has a metaphysical tablet outlining human rights to which we are all subconsciously privy. We can talk about a behavior, in an evolutionary sense, that confers advantages on those members who exhibit it being selected for; but for whatever reason, that explanation never satisifies moral realists. I don't know how else to think about it.
I don't really know if this stream-of-consciousness mumbo jumbo addresses your questions, so I'll give it some more thought.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
| Edited by - PhDreamer on 11/15/2002 16:21:54 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 16:24:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Even doctors that take their hypocrite oath.
{emphasis mine}
LOL! Kil will be so proud!
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 16:26:44 [Permalink]
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Terryt88,
#1. I would have to say there are no universal HR's as in those that are somehow granted to us by some transcendal force. If you look at any state you will see that the rights of the individuals of that state are controlled by the ruling state unless the people execute an action to break the rule (revolt, flee, etc.). However philosophically we can debate that certain rights should be guaranteed to all such as the right to live, but even these are not hard constants carried out by any country (e.g. death penalties, war, etc.).
#2. Yes for a time. We could all come to an agreement that certain rights should be guaranteed to all, but this would be based on philosophical arguments and these tend to change with time, so I would think that any such set of "fundamental" rights would always be evolving and additionally you will always have states that do not have the same set of "fundamental" rights.
#3 Philosophically one can argue that there are rights that should be universal, but realistically all rights are derived from the state. For instance my right to sit here and type this post is granted to me by the state. Although some may say it should be a universal right to express oneself if the state decided they no longer wanted me to post my messages they could enact laws to remove such rights (of course I could break such laws, but then I am breaking my contract with society and risk punishment).
Hope that's comprehendable. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 16:28:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Even doctors that take their hypocrite oath.
{emphasis mine}
LOL! Kil will be so proud!
 Hehehe I was wondering if that was intentional or not heeheh |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 18:23:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by @tomic
Even doctors that take their hypocrite oath.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{emphasis mine}
LOL! Kil will be so proud!
Check the context. It was not an error.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2002 : 22:02:15 [Permalink]
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| Why are my ears burning? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 00:24:06 [Permalink]
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Hmm, you're quite right @tomic. That one went right by me.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2002 : 13:57:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Terryt88Are there universal HR that transcend states and culture, or only HR that are relative to individual cultures?
You can make anything "universal" by using vague terminology; unfortunately, your statements become meaningless. For example, "every thinking creature deserves the respect due his or her position." You can easily say that is a universal human right, but it is almost a tautology: there is no reaon to even bother to say it.
If we specify a human right to the point where a meaningful assertion is uttered, like, "every woman has a right to $50,000 for education when she turns 18," it is no longer universal. quote:
Can there ever be fundamental social or economic rights?
Yes, but they are only fundamental to the society in which they are in effect. quote:
Can a line be drawn to rights that are universal and those that should be left up to individual states?
Yes. If the assertion of rights is unambiguous then it is not a universal right. quote:
Thanks for your time.
Hey, no problem.
I just started reading a book that (partly) covers the idea of universality. Sex, Ecology, Spirituality, by Ken Wilber. I can't give an accurate review yet, but the first couple hundred pages are interesting. |
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hocndoc
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2002 : 21:46:35 [Permalink]
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I'd suggest "Healing the Culture" by Robert Spitzer.
The right to life is pretty basic, and the job of legitimate government is to protect the life of humans.
Has anyone read Alastair McIntyre's "Beyond Virtue"? He compares the discussion of rights and ethics by our contemporaries to the Cargo Culture. We don't know the meanings of the words, understand the history or necessity. We just build towers and put coconut shells on our ears, mimicking the calling in of planes on our fake landing strips, and never understand why the cargo planes don't come in.
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| Edited by - hocndoc on 11/26/2002 21:52:20 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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hocndoc
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2002 : 00:28:26 [Permalink]
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| As I said, too many of us discussing ethics just do not understand the language. |
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