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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/26/2002 : 09:31:24 [Permalink]
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I too have noticed a dearth of women skeptics on the boards, hyar and thar. But I've also noted that those who are regulars are pretty hard-nosed about it. Indeed, they tend to be better prepared for a discussion than many men, including me.
I can identify with the single parent scene. I raised 2 daughters alone, and if Lord Quetzacoatl or any other jumped-up hallucination came down and told me I'd have to do it again, I'd shoot the bastard, then turn the pistol on myself! Even though I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 01:37:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I raised 2 daughters alone, and if Lord Quetzacoatl or any other jumped-up hallucination came down and told me I'd have to do it again, I'd shoot the bastard, then turn the pistol on myself! Even though I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
f
Wow! That's amazing. I know nothing about rasising girls. When my daughter was 2 I told her she was a boy but she insisted she wasn't. Bummer. My mother pretty much raised her from then on. Filthy, I don't know how you did it. They seem to have so many more problems than boys. My brother and I would just play football in the park, I never cared about wearing anything but jeans. My mother was always sewing fancy clothes for my sister. Yuk! I never cared about even brushing my hair, LOL, my sister and her friends would be doing all kinds of stuff with theirs. And on and on....girls....huh! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2002 : 02:05:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Denise
Bastards? How enlightened of you. Tell me, do you still call black people niggers?
I still call my room mate Chinaman (as he is of Chinese decent) and my kids halfies. What's in a name? A rose by any other name....etc., etc. |
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Deborah
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2002 : 13:33:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rick1
This lack of females is apparent in the SFN chat room also. We have only had one female in our Wed. chats. So come to the Wed 7PM PT chat and demand your rights as skeptic females. We can see if the skeptic males can handle it, or if they resort to patronizing chauvinistic comments to protect there fragile male egos. I am sure that they are more enlightend then that (I think)
If I had a man toy..er..uhm..secretary to keep track of me and remind me of such important matters..I would attend. Any volunteers? I may not be there in physical form, but I'm there in 'spirit'  |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2002 : 14:26:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rick1
This lack of females is apparent in the SFN chat room also. We have only had one female in our Wed. chats. So come to the Wed 7PM PT chat and demand your rights as skeptic females. We can see if the skeptic males can handle it, or if they resort to patronizing chauvinistic comments to protect there fragile male egos. I am sure that they are more enlightend then that (I think)
Alas, I've tried to join the chat room. Seems there's something that needs to be downloaded for it to work. Every time I try, the dang connection times out.
Ah well, I still have PalTalk. And if the discussion gets slow, someone can always play music. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 03:12:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
News flash! We are not on the right road when, wittness this folder, people, especially women, keep pointing out the 'differences'.
Oh man, Snake, we've been in agreement on several issues, and pretty much out on our own on a couple, but this misogyny of yours will never be something we can agree on. Where does it come from?
Women still do not have equal access to all the benefits of society which most men take for granted. This is probably due to the same reasons that women have been held as second class citizens throughout the history of Western Civilization. Our culture is still dominated by men. However, we now take for granted women's right to vote, to own property, and even to control and to give voice to their own belief systems. These things were not taken for granted even as early as a century ago.
We ARE on the right road, but that road will continue to be a bumpy one, with many women expressing concerns about the quality of the road, and sometimes even just downright bitching about it in exactly the same way that we bitch about the fundies, the UFOlogists, and the paranormalists.
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Not to point out the obvious....but it is the women who are doing the raising. More women are raising bastards...er, um..er I mean...are raising kids in single parent households. Most grade school teachers are women, most child care providers are women.
So who are women complaining to about how young children are taught?
Slater, sounds to me like a couple of worthless generalizations aimed at excusing men for their social neglect.
Read the last round of complaints in this thread. Who are the men complaining to?
It's all about social responsibility. Just maybe, the ladies have reason to bitch!
By the way...my wife may still be a bit of a Unitarian, always looking for some greater purpose, but she is in agreement on almost all of the ideals held by the majority of the self-proclaimed skeptic community. Because she searches for some "higher meaning" and hopes that it exists, does this make her less of a skeptic when considering issues like pseudoscience, the paranormal, theistic religion, and UFO's? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2002 : 19:51:32 [Permalink]
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Tim, I understand your likely point-of-view when you call Snake a mysogynist, but I can say with a high degree of certainty that your characterization is incorrect, albeit for reasons you could not have known. And, um, you'll just have to take my word for it. 
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
| Edited by - PhDreamer on 12/01/2002 19:52:49 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 01:16:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
Tim, I understand your likely point-of-view when you call Snake a mysogynist, but I can say with a high degree of certainty that your characterization is incorrect, albeit for reasons you could not have known. And, um, you'll just have to take my word for it.
Thanks PhD. Not sure exactly everything you are saying. And sorry if I'm contradicting you but I have often said I'm the worlds # 1 Mysogynist.
Apprecaite your discreteness though.
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Oh man, Snake, we've been in agreement on several issues, and pretty much out on our own on a couple, but this misogyny of yours will never be something we can agree on. Where does it come from?
Tim, have you got about a month. I'll lay down on a couch and tell you all about it. Briefly, at a young age my views were formed because of observations in my life of the women around me (and how they treated the men in their life, and me). Women have always been nasty and rude and the men in my life have been sweet, gentle and loving. Of course with exceptions on both sides but the %age is greatly swayed toward each side respectively.
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Women still do not have equal access to all the benefits of society which most men take for granted. This is probably due to the same reasons that women have been held as second class citizens throughout the history of Western Civilization. Our culture is still dominated by men. However, we now take for granted women's right to vote, to own property, and even to control and to give voice to their own belief systems. These things were not taken for granted even as early as a century ago.
Where do you get your facts? From what I see they do have as many equalities as anyone else. (Just because a private golf club doesn't want them, that's the right of the place as it should be.)
Women have always been a part of this countrys (USA) development. As well as many other 'Western' countries. It's not like there have never been Queens in England, etc. Would you like me to name all the Joan de Arch's, Marie Curie's, Nightingale's, etc., in history. What about all the women in the USA who have screwed men by getting big divorce settlements while they sit around doing nothing but collecting the hard earned money that the guy makes? People who think women are helpless or not credited in history make it sound like they had no voice AT ALL, EVER.
In the country I'm most familiar, Thailand (in Asia), women have had as many rights as the men throughout their history. I'm sure there are other examples elsewhere. If you are going to say there are places like the middle East where they are slaves, well....IMO the average man in places like that are also helpless due to the rulers. And I also think that even if there are places where women are lower class, like with any thing that's in the news it's more of an oddity then the norm (for the world over all). |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 04:46:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where do you get your facts? From what I see they do have as many equalities as anyone else.
Legally and today they do. If my memory is correct the 19th Ammendment giving women the right to vote was passed in this country only about 83 years ago.
Though there has never been a law prohibiting women from owning property, female owned and controled property was more of the exception than the rule. For instance, Martha Dandridge Custis was one of the wealthiest people in 18th century Virginia, but only after her husband died. When she remarried George Washington, Mr. Washington became one of the wealthiest men in Virginia, and Mrs. Washington dutifully returned to her domestic role, allowing George to run the farm.
Before the industrial revolution, women owned an extremely small portion of the overall wealth, and that was often only acquired as an inheritance, or gift. Women seldom acquired 'new' wealth. This is not a legal issue, but a cultural one finding it's roots in the biblical subjugation of women.
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Just because a private golf club doesn't want them, that's the right of the place as it should be.
Very true, but also an indication of our social gender bias, for better or worse. I see very little reason that a woman is less capable than a man when it comes to knocking a little ball around the countryside.
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Women have always been a part of this countrys (USA) development. As well as many other 'Western' countries. It's not like there have never been Queens in England, etc. Would you like me to name all the Joan de Arch's, Marie Curie's, Nightingale's, etc., in history.
True, but still a rarity in comparison. Up until the beginning of the Enlightenment, remarkable women are almost unheard of, with the exception of those imprisoned or executed for witchcraft, or whatever other crime the clerics could think up.
From the end of the Roman Republic, until the industrial revolution I'm hard pressed to find examples of even two dozen women that had prominent roles in shaping our modern western culture. I blame this on two things; the dogma of western monotheism, and the simple fact that men hit a hell of a lot harder, (in general). Indoctrination and fear are very difficult to overcome. We're still fighting that battle, and probably always will for some reason or another.
Today, women are still paid less on average for the same job. Many good Christians and some others still demand that their women be submissive in all things outside of domestic life, even if that woman works outside the home as many hours as the man. I won't even go into the realm of abuse.
This, of course, is a cultural bias, rather than a legal one, and often the same bias affects men. For instance, funding for male specific health care and research is much less. But, overall, I still feel that women have a more difficult row to hoe, than do men.
I don't mean to demean anyone, but I feel very strongly about a few issues. Translated--I can get a bit judgemental, and dismissive at times. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2002 : 01:37:32 [Permalink]
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After writing this reply I see there are some difficulties with the text. Will attempt to fix them....we'll see if it works, if not....deal with it 1st off, that one part that is BIG, I don't know why, I didn't do it.
============================================
quote:
Originally posted by Tim
quote:
Where do you get your facts? From what I see they do have as many equalities as anyone else.
Legally and today they do. If my memory is correct the 19th Ammendment giving women the right to vote was passed in this country only about 83 years ago.
Though there has never been a law prohibiting women from owning property, female owned and controled property was more of the exception than the rule. For instance, Martha Dandridge Custis was one of the wealthiest people in 18th century Virginia, but only after her husband died. When she remarried George Washington, Mr. Washington became one of the wealthiest men in Virginia, and Mrs. Washington dutifully returned to her domestic role, allowing George to run the farm.
Well then, I'm not quite understanding the point, BTW, if there's not a law, then why change laws now. As in the case of afirmitive action.
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Before the industrial revolution, women owned an extremely small portion of the overall wealth, and that was often only acquired as an inheritance, or gift. Women seldom acquired 'new' wealth. This is not a legal issue, but a cultural one finding it's roots in the biblical subjugation of women.
I don't think it's from religion, necessarily. I'm not an antropoligist so this is just an observation from what I know about history. And that is, IMO long before there was ever a bible or the thought of a god who controles us, but in the time of cavemen, it was just nature who set down the 'rules'. Men hunt down the food and women needed to be with the children. If the idiot xians decided that was because of gods will it's only their idea but the reason for women being subserviant or not in power started before that.
quote:
quote:
Just because a private golf club doesn't want them, that's the right of the place as it should be.
Very true, but also an indication of our social gender bias, for better or worse. I see very little reason that a woman is less capable than a man when it comes to knocking a little ball around the countryside.
I think you missed the point. Who cares if a woman wants to play a sutpid game like golf? (side note: but who wants to see pro womens sports, anyway?) My point was that if something is a private, the government has no right to force them to hire, admit, give service to, anyone they don't want to. We all have preferances, I don't like children and I choose to be where they aren't, for example. The world does NOT have to be homogenized. People might want to be with 'their own kind', whatever that might be. We can't force someone to socialize with whom they don't feel comfortable.
quote:
quote:
Women have always been a part of this countrys (USA) development. As well as many other 'Western' countries. It's not like there have never been Queens in England, etc. Would you like me to name all the Joan de Arch's, Marie Curie's, Nightingale's, etc., in history.
True, but still a rarity in comparison. Up until the beginning of the Enlightenment, remarkable women are almost unheard of, with the exception of those imprisoned or executed for witchcraft, or whatever other crime the clerics could think up.
From the end of the Roman Republic, until the industrial revolution I'm hard pressed to find examples of even two dozen women that had prominent roles in shaping our modern western culture. I blame this on two things; the dogma of western monotheism, and the simple fact that men hit a hell of a lot harder, (in general). Indoctrination and fear are very difficult to overcome. We're still fighting that battle, and probably always will for some reason or another.
Today, women are still paid less on average for the same job. Many good Christians and some others still demand that their women be submissive in all things outside of domestic life, even if that woman works outside the home as many hours as the man. I won't even go into the realm of abuse.
This, of course, is a cultural bias, rather than a legal one, and often the same bias affects men. For instance, funding for male specific health care and research is much less. But, overall, I still feel that women have a more difficult row to hoe, than do men.
I don't mean to demean anyone, but I feel very strongly about a few issues. Translated--I can get a bit judgemental, and dismissive at times.
Several years ago I was in a discussion about womens rights with my cousin, a womens liber type who spewed out almost word for word what you just said. I have to wonder if that 'info' is being passed on down the line or some group is brainwashing liberals into beliving myths or is slanting facts to fit a cause. I understand that you have strong feelings about the situation but be skeptical too. Think for yourself, look around and ask questions. Don't rely on statistics from groups with an agenda.
{1st attempt to fix formatting - PhD} |
| Edited by - PhDreamer on 12/04/2002 08:35:04 |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2002 : 03:11:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Very true, but also an indication of our social gender bias, for better or worse. I see very little reason that a woman is less capable than a man when it comes to knocking a little ball around the countryside.
I love how people make a big deal out of this. Who cares if some multi-millionaire female can't get into a PRIVATE golf club. Aren't there more important women's issues? The people bitching about this never point out that the club has 300 members. You know how many men are rejected membership there? Hundreds if not thousands get rejected, Augusta membership is a much sought after status symbol. But of course if a female is denied, it is considered sexism(but letting the female in because she is female, ahead of of many men who got rejected is equality.)
Men's only clubs and gyms - "Sexism! Sexism!"
Women's only clubs and gyms - "Woman need a place of their own, it isn't sexism."
Edit Corrected member total, I originally state 93, actual number is closer to 300. |
Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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| Edited by - LordofEntropy on 12/03/2002 03:52:05 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2002 : 04:27:08 [Permalink]
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Snake, I really don't think that we are that far off in our opinions. However, I will say that I mentioned that women were not given equal rights under the law until relatively recently. Although the law is no longer a built in bias, our culture is, despite the fact that it is changing for the better.
Furthermore, I am not a proponent of Affirmative Action. I am a proponent of personal responsibility. I never proposed that we legislate how people think, or who they must associate with on a personal or a professional basis. However, I do endorse the free exchange of ideas. I reserve the right to jump on my soapbox whenever I feel that a wrong needs to be righted.
The intrinsic worth of all people is equal. I feel that women, among others, have been treated with much less priviledge in our culture. And, you're right in saying that religion is not the cause. However, it seems to be one of the primary mechanisms. The cause is most likely that men have become socially dominant in our culture, because, physically, we could!
As far as the golf club thing goes, who really gives a good flyin' f*$#. If it's your sandbox, you can play with any little kid that you want. That ain't none of my business, as long as you play nice. My point was that it even happens in the first place may be indicative of a deeper problem. I never could understand how a person must be of a particular gender, or skin tone, or sexual orientation to want to spend time socializing with them. But, to each his own.
Anyhow, I've found no credibilty to the claim that historically, and presently, women have been treated with the same deference as men, (ability not withstanding).
I hope that this clears things up.
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 12/03/2002 04:29:41 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 01:09:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Snake, I really don't think that we are that far off in our opinions. However, I will say that I mentioned that women were not given equal rights under the law until relatively recently. Although the law is no longer a built in bias, our culture is, despite the fact that it is changing for the better.
Furthermore, I am not a proponent of Affirmative Action. I am a proponent of personal responsibility. I never proposed that we legislate how people think, or who they must associate with on a personal or a professional basis. However, I do endorse the free exchange of ideas. I reserve the right to jump on my soapbox whenever I feel that a wrong needs to be righted.
Please see the last part of the reply by LordofEntropy. WOW! Is that so right on or what?
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The intrinsic worth of all people is equal.
No, it's not.
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I feel that women, among others, have been treated with much less priviledge in our culture.
They have(had priviledge). At least women, for sake of this statement we must leave out other groups.
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And, you're right in saying that religion is not the cause. However, it seems to be one of the primary mechanisms.
Perhaps in some cases. But if as you say it's socity then religion might not be a wide cause. But only in relativity few cases.
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The cause is most likely that men have become socially dominant in our culture, because, physically, we could!
Because, it's likely? LOL. Because that's the way it is.
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I never could understand how a person must be of a particular gender, or skin tone, or sexual orientation to want to spend time socializing with them. But, to each his own.
Well, how is it that some people like the green and others like blue? Or some like corn and others like potatoes? Again, that's just the way it is.
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Anyhow, I've found no credibilty to the claim that historically, and presently, women have been treated with the same deference as men, (ability not withstanding).
Because that's the way they want you to think.
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I hope that this clears things up.
LOL, you haven't changed my mind.
One comment on changing laws and the government mixing into things, even though you said you aren't concerned about afrimative action.
Look at what happened when the idiots (in government) decided that drugs should have more control. My guess, it could have been from preasuer from drug companies. But anyway, when 'hard' drugs were avalible there were not all the problems we have today.
So like with women wanting to push their way in where they are not wanted and making an issue where there shouldn't be one, more laws will just cause more confusion, distrust and antagnoism, IMO. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2002 : 08:52:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofEntropy
quote:
Very true, but also an indication of our social gender bias, for better or worse. I see very little reason that a woman is less capable than a man when it comes to knocking a little ball around the countryside.
I love how people make a big deal out of this. Who cares if some multi-millionaire female can't get into a PRIVATE golf club. Aren't there more important women's issues? The people bitching about this never point out that the club has 300 members. You know how many men are rejected membership there? Hundreds if not thousands get rejected, Augusta membership is a much sought after status symbol. But of course if a female is denied, it is considered sexism(but letting the female in because she is female, ahead of of many men who got rejected is equality.)
I suspect if Hootie Johnson hadn't basically hung his No gurlz aloud sign on the front door for all the media to see, this might not be as big a deal. As it is, Johnson infuriates some (and looks like an ass) for taking a "principled" stand on an issue that has no real principle behind it other than his legal right. I don't have a problem with a private citizen or organization taking a legally defensible stand against public opinion, but Jebus, at least pick something that some of us can openly agree with on merit.
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Men's only clubs and gyms - "Sexism! Sexism!"
Women's only clubs and gyms - "Woman need a place of their own, it isn't sexism."
I might agree with this, but it doesn't absolve Augusta of criticism. The issue we're battling here is the right of a politico-economic majority to register a legitimate complaint in the 'court of public opinion' against treatment by a minority. The old axiom "Those with power don't retain the right to complain about the behavior of the powerless," or however it goes, clearly is not universally applicable anymore.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2002 : 15:05:22 [Permalink]
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This is a facinating discussion about equality and rights. However, this doesn't answer Denise's original question.
Here's a good "for example" for ya (purely anecdotal, no flames please.): Tonight is the James Randi internet audio show. A bunch of us will be listening in PalTalk. Every week, it's the same thing. There's about 20 people there, and maybe, just maybe three of them are women.
I'm not in any way, shape, or form complaining about the way the guys treat us. We're considered just another one of the usual suspects. Just thought I'd throw in that caveat.
Since the JREF board is bigger, I ran over there and checked out the top 100 posters. I figure about 10% were female. I don't think this fits the demographics of the world in general.
Just out of curiousity, I asked a guy about this. We're talking about this on msn right now. After we got past "Beats the shit outta me", we've sort of decided that women are conditioned by societal norms to react emotionally instead of logically. I know that's weak. Hey, but it's 2300 Johnno's time, and I've had a couple of beers. It's the best we could do. Any other comments are certainly welcome. |
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