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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:12:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
The formation of religion is similar to evolutionary theory.
Bullpuckie.
quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Christianity is one of these punctuated equilibrium religions, appearing out of nowhere, and spreading quickly. It exists because of the revolutionary ideas of a single founder, Jesus.
What revolutionary ideas?
quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Conclusion: that this theory is basically a conspiracy theory, disguised as a historical debate.
That's not a conclusion. That's muddled name-calling.
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:35:27 [Permalink]
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Revolutionary ideas of Jesus:
-That he's the Son of God.
-That he has come to save everyone.
Revolutionary, different, crazy, call them what you want. Ideas that change the way (some) people think. That's what I mean by revolutionary.
quote:
That's not a conclusion. That's muddled name-calling.
It's not name calling. I'm just pointing out the fact that, when reduced to simplest terms, it's indistinguishable from a conspiracy theory. |
| Edited by - Infamous on 12/10/2002 08:35:50 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 08:59:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Revolutionary ideas of Jesus:
-That he's the Son of God.
-That he has come to save everyone.
Osiris-Dionysus
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 09:19:49 [Permalink]
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There is a third sort of religion. That which is artificially constructed to ensure the financial and political power of its creators. This would include religions from the state sponsored worship of Serapis to Scientology.
These religions at recognizable in that they are usually constructed from previously existing gods. In the case of Serapis they were Osiris and Apis, in that of Jesus, Mithra and Dionysus.
Also if they are given an "historic" start they will have left no trace in history. Like the Angel Moroni. Spectacular as his story was he didn't actually exist so he went unnoticed. While religions of "punctuated equilibrium," as you put it, founders all got themselves noticed. So people like Zoroaster, the Buddha and Mohammed are noticed by their contemporaries and recorded into history.
To suggest that a person like Jesus could have existed and done the things he allegedly did and yet not he nor any of his Apostles have been noticed by anyone is ludicrous.
Apollonius of Tyana, at the same time, doing exactly the same healing "miracles" left a fine paper trail. And he wasn't God, never claimed to be.
To suggest that the start of Christianity as a "conspiracy theory" is impossible is also ludicrous. We are talking about Byzantine Rome here not CBS News. We are talking about the overthrow of the Imperial Roman government by the use of Jesus the war god. We are talking about the over throw of all of Hellenism and the confiscation of all it's vast wealth and murder of its supporters by Jesus the god of love.
Can you seriously suggest that there were not "byzantine plots" in Byzantium?
Can you possibly suggest that a superman could come to Earth with super-powers and abilities far beyond those of normal men and not be noticed in his lifetime? That a magic god/man is a likely scenario but unscrupulous politicians (who became the richest most powerful people in the world) are beneath consideration?
This does not seem to be an "historical debate," as there is no historic record of Jesus having ever existed. There is nothing to debate about until you can find somebody back in 33 CE who might have been Jesus. And after 1700 years of looking no one has been able to do that.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 09:40:10 [Permalink]
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Revolutionary ideas of Jesus:
-That he's the Son of God.
-That he has come to save everyone.
Mithra was the son of god and the savior of mankind.
Dionysus was the son of god and the savior of mankind.
Osiris was the son of god and the savior of mankind.
Apis was the son of god and the savior of mankind.
They were all born of virgin birth, on the same date as Jesus. They all died for our sins. They all were resurrected, on the same date as Jesus. They all will come again to judge the living and the dead. They all instructed us to follow variations of "the golden rule."
And they were all before Jesus. He was nothing new.
Revolutionary, different, crazy, call them what you want. Ideas that change the way (some) people think. That's what I mean by revolutionary.
The ideas that Jesus presented that these other gods had not. Eternal Hell, infinite suffering for finite offences. Confession of sins of thought, word and deed to government appointed "priests." Zero tolerance (high treason with a death penalty attached) for worshipers of any other gods. Destruction of western civilization and onset of "Dark Ages."
Some great ideas those.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 12/10/2002 09:41:17 |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 10:40:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Revolutionary ideas of Jesus:
-That he's the Son of God.
-That he has come to save everyone.
Revolutionary, different, crazy, call them what you want. Ideas that change the way (some) people think. That's what I mean by revolutionary.
Although I've posted this before, at the risk of being repetitive:
When you say that Jesus was the "Son of God" I assume that you get this idea from Jesus making such references as "Our Father in Heaven" or the comment that when Jesus taught, the teachings were not his but "from The Father". I think that it's fairly clear from the Gospels that Jesus spoke of "The Father" as the Father-figure over all the Jews. Other posters to this Forum (and many others, world-wide) like the notion of Jesus being the "Son of God" so that they can reduce Jesus to a character in a cleverly concocted psuedo-religion which really was a philosophical resurection of Mithra. At least that's how I read it.
Horribly contrary to your contention that Jesus "came to save everyone", Jesus instructed his field-preachers to, if someone didn't want to hear the teachings that Jesus had brought, to simply leave----"shaking the dust off of their sandals as a testament against them". This is very far from the way someone "saves everyone". Modern times, rather than the method Jesus suggested, give a much more effective method: "Convert or be burned at the stake!" This is far, far from the teaching that Jesus gave.
As to the "revolutionary" ideas that Jesus brought (as recorded in the Gospels--admittedly denied by many as being patent forgeries): There are many; and many, if not all, fly directly in the face of the conspiratorial theory that "Christianity" was concocted by the Emperor Constantine in the mold of ancient Mithran dogmas. One of these is the "away with tithing"--the mandated 10% religious-tax of the Old Testament. Jesus instructs his field-preachers to "take nothing with them": What to do, then, with any tax-loot? Nothing. Conclusion: No religion-based taxes. What a bummer for typically rich, fat-catting, loot-happy priests and preachers!
"Sell all you have and give it all to the poor," instructed Jesus to the spoiled rich-kid who wanted to join the Apostles. He didn't say "Give the loot to me" or "Give the proceeds to us and we will distribute it to the poor". Another revolutionary bummer for those who like to rake off 10-90% of the givings for themselves.
Recall who Jesus said was more noted in heaven---not the gloriously-robed priest who contributed much to the temple; but, rather, the poverty-stricken woman who could only afford to give a 'penny', but give it she did! Another bummer for those who plan to buy their way into heaven. Very revolutionary--at least on this side of the Iranian mountains.
There are so many more that were I to even list a small percentage, Boron10 would have to begin Book V of this seemingly interminable thread---which should perhaps be entitled "Constintine did it all" or "Mithra Rules".
(Edited to correct 2 misspelliings.)
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
| Edited by - Computer Org on 12/10/2002 10:46:24 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 11:36:20 [Permalink]
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When you say that Jesus was the "Son of God" I assume that you get this idea from Jesus making such references…
Christianity has been around for at least seventeen hundred years. Jesus being the "Son of God," has been an essential Christian doctrine for the entire time. To claim that Skeptics have invented this just so they could " reduce Jesus to a character in a cleverly concocted pseudo-religion which really was a philosophical resurrection of Mithra" is a willful misrepresentation of history. Would you have us believe that the billions of Christians who have lived were all baptized "in the Name of the Father; and of Some Guy; and of the Holy Spirit. Amen?"
One of these is the "away with tithing"--the mandated 10% religious-tax of the Old Testament. Jesus instructs his field-preachers to "take nothing with them": What to do, then, with any tax-loot? Nothing. Conclusion: No religion-based taxes. What a bummer for typically rich, fat-catting, loot-happy priests and preachers!
Yeah right, pull the other one.
Not only does Jesus order you to pay your taxes (Give unto Caesar that which is Caesars" and adopt a tax collector as his Apostle but in Acts 5:1 you are told to give every last cent to the church (a division of Constantine's government) and not just a measly 10%. In fact this story has St Peter murder a couple (Ananias and his wife, Sapphira) and dump their bodies because, even though they gave him some of their money, they didn't give him every cent they had.
… didn't say "Give the loot to me" or "Give the proceeds to us and we will distribute it to the poor". Another revolutionary bummer for those who like to rake off 10-90% of the givings for themselves.
Gee, it's too bad for Mr & Mrs Ananias that you know more about what Jesus did and did not say than Saint Peter did.
Recall who Jesus said was more noted in heaven…the poverty-stricken woman
The NT glorifies poverty and human suffering. Especially suffering in silence and not trying to better your position in this world (camels and needles and all that) because it was the policy of the Imperial Roman government that everyone was to stay in the social position they were born in. They called this policy "Status Quo" meaning the state in which. We still use this same term today.
All Jesus does is reinforce the existing Roman social system. Not something you would expect a Jew, much less a Messiah, to want to do.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2002 : 12:19:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Gee, it's too bad for Mr & Mrs Ananias that you know more about what Jesus did and did not say than Saint Peter did.
Classic. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 07:41:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
Conclusion: that this theory is basically a conspiracy theory, disguised as a historical debate.
So you think a "conspiracy theory" is a priori untrue and/or unworthy of consideration?
(woohoo! I've always wanted to use a priori in a sentence!  )
As to the rest of your post, others have answered you much better than I ever could. Though your thinking that "Son of God" and "saving everyone" are revolutionary ideas shows that you have much to learn about this subject. |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 09:01:05 [Permalink]
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Ok, "revolutionary" was probably the wrong word to use. What I meant were teachings that change the way a large number of people think in a relatively short time.
And just for the record, according to the story, Ananias died not because he withheld money, but because he lied. He could have given only part of his money and said that that was all he wanted to give. Instead he lied and said that he had given all the money. And Peter didn't have either him or his wife killed...they just fell down and died (!). After which they recieved a proper burial.
And another thing, Constantine wasn't even around when Acts was written. It was written at about 100 A.D. Constantine wouldn't be around for another 200 years. The church would not have anything to do with his government until he actually came to power, and by then Acts would have already been in existance for 200 years. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 10:55:21 [Permalink]
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The New In Search Of :"ludicrous. We are talking about Byzantine Rome here not CBS News. We are talking about the overthrow of the Imperial Roman government by the use of Jesus the war god. We are talking about the over throw of all of Hellenism and the confiscation of all it's vast wealth and murder of its supporters by Jesus the god of love.
Can you seriously suggest that there were not "byzantine plots" in Byzantium?
Can you possibly suggest that a superman could come to Earth with super-powers and abilities far beyond those of normal men and not be noticed in his lifetime? That a magic god/man is a likely scenario but unscrupulous politicians (who became the richest most powerful people in the world) are beneath consideration?"
The first word says it all ludicrous.Again Slater please tell the rest of the human race HOW you came by this secret information and just how ALL the Classical Historians have missed it for over 1900 years? A quote from Slater(p.2 from the original post) sums it up,"I am perfectly capable of developing my own crackpot ideas. The composite/god status of Jesus is an opinion widely held by those involved in comparative mythology"
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 12/11/2002 11:18:06 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2002 : 12:22:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Infamous
What I meant were teachings that change the way a large number of people think in a relatively short time.
The "way a large number of people think" changed from pervasive superstition and acceptance of the supernatural to a pervasive superstition and acceptance of the supernatural. The remainder of your assertion is no less vacuous. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
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Topic Locked
