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a65phalcon
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 12/02/2002 : 11:05:11 [Permalink]
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I pose this question to Tokyo dreamer. Howso? Where is your evidence? Its easy to be a skeptic because it allows you to live life as you see fit. Therefore excepting any form of restraint would be purely stupid. But when you share a certain form of relationship with a being such as Christ or God you take it upon yourself to live by a set of rules. The fact of the manner is there is historical doctorine that supports Jesus exstitance out side of the known Bible. Point of record, The Dead Sea Scrolls, for those of you who go by what was published over 20 years ago pertaining to the content of the scrolls you should seriously reconsider. Common knowledge does not always mean it is true. The scrolls themselves have been researched in great depth since the first implications of their exsistance was thought to be understood. Try reading the lastest studies;. I believe it is own the DUke University website. I will get back to you with a link later.
Also, it is hard to find any evidence of early Jewish doctorine due to the Roman Empire. More often than not the persecution of the Jews by the Romans lead to the destruction of history. A far to common event even in todays times. |
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a65phalcon
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 11:11:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmm. By the way, 90-and some odd percent of the world's population don't think of Jesus as the son of God. Christianity is still a minority among the world's religious populations. I don't know (or much care) what the percentages are.
Filthy although I agree that Christianity may be the minority of the majority. Number 3 of 3 in the major relgion category. I believe that Darwin was pointing out that the major relgions accept Christ as a profit. While the arguement is weither or not Christ is the son of God. The three major religions of the world ( Muslim, Jeudaism, and Christianity) do not dispute God. Same God throughout. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 11:21:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by a65phalcon
I pose this question to Tokyo dreamer. Howso? Where is your evidence?
What a waste of bandwith. There is nothing, zilch, nada, in the Dead Sea Scrolls that could be considered remotely probative. If you believe otherwise, document it. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 11:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
I pose this question to Tokyo dreamer. Howso? Where is your evidence? Its easy to be a skeptic because it allows you to live life as you see fit. Therefore excepting any form of restraint would be purely stupid. But when you share a certain form of relationship with a being such as Christ or God you take it upon yourself to live by a set of rules.
Someone needs to think things through a little bit...or at all.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 12:11:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by a65phalcon
I pose this question to Tokyo dreamer. Howso? Where is your evidence?
You have to realize that I made that statement from the perspective of having read every post on this subject across the multiple threads that have existed here(that's hundreds, by the way), plus done a bit of light research on the subject.
The evidence has been stated again and again (and again and again) here, just read the old posts.
Can anyone point out a reliable source other than the NT that mentions a historical Jesus? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 12:59:57 [Permalink]
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| If there are any Christian scholars out there lurking, or any theistic intellectuals at all, please write in. Any Jesuits reading this at all? Any sane Christians, hello, hello...please say something. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 13:09:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
If there are any Christian scholars out there lurking, or any theistic intellectuals at all, please write in. Any Jesuits reading this at all? Any sane Christians, hello, hello...please say something.
I am guessing SETI will discover alien intelligence first...
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 15:36:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Filthy although I agree that Christianity may be the minority of the majority. Number 3 of 3 in the major relgion category. I believe that Darwin was pointing out that the major relgions accept Christ as a profit. While the arguement is weither or not Christ is the son of God. The three major religions of the world ( Muslim, Jeudaism, and Christianity) do not dispute God. Same God throughout.
Hmm, yes. But a prophet is not the same thing as, "The Son of God." A prophet is a mere mortal alleged to be in communication with God. Muhammad (sp?) for example. Indeed, if you stretch the definition only slightly, John Edward could be called a prophet (and he has been, as have other scoundrels).
Also, you fail to take into consideration such major faiths as Hindi, Shinto and others, not to mention various, pagan beliefs, modern and ancient, and various whacko and dingbat cults.
It's a big world filled with so many belief systems that one is scarcely able to sort them all out.
Here's a site that I enjoy from time to time. It's kind'a, but not entirely off topic, but it's a lot of fun. And it'll give you an idea of just how weird H. sapiens can be when it comes to religion.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/index.html
Have fun!
f
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 12/02/2002 15:39:05 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 15:48:30 [Permalink]
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Heh, I guess atheism was left out because it's not a belief system. I have had the opportunity to talk with some Chinese and Russians and they actually are atheists leaving me to suspect that lack of a belief may be far more prevalent than believers want to admit. Oh, and the "they only say they are atheists because of their government" argument is a sham when you consider Russia is no longer communist yet full of atheists and Chinese seem to remain atheists even after emigrating abroad. This leaves the "Big 3" running scared as their membership base dwindles day by day.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 20:44:13 [Permalink]
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Slater continues to destort the issue: quote:
Plus as far as Irenaeus we have corroborating evidence as to his historical reliability.
What a meaningless smokescreen of a statement.
Untill the finding of the Nag Hammadi documents…The only source of information we had on The Gnostics was
from Irenaus
The Nag Hammadi dates from the 340's CE. The writings of Irenaeus from 325 CE.
Tell us Slate and Rd do you really believe that over 10 volumes of the Ante-Nicene Fathers incompasing over 275 years of History were planted by latter Church officals?  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 21:05:41 [Permalink]
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TD asks: quote:
Can anyone point out a reliable source other than the NT that mentions a historical Jesus?
Not that you need a source "other than [eyewitness accounts in]the NT" but here's a couple,Joesphus' Antiquities 20.200"the Sanhedrin...brought before it the brother of Jesus [James] the so called Christ",and Tacitus,Annals15.44,"The author of this name ,Christ,during the reign of Tiberius,had been executed by the procrator Pontius Pilate.Suppressed for the moment,the deadly supersition broke out again,not only in Judea,the land which originated this evil,but also in the ciy of Rome,where all sorts of horrendous and shameful practicies from every part of theworld converge and are fervently cultivated"  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 12/02/2002 21:06:31 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 21:20:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Heh, I guess atheism was left out because it's not a belief system. I have had the opportunity to talk with some Chinese and Russians and they actually are atheists leaving me to suspect that lack of a belief may be far more prevalent than believers want to admit. Oh, and the "they only say they are atheists because of their government" argument is a sham when you consider Russia is no longer communist yet full of atheists and Chinese seem to remain atheists even after emigrating abroad. This leaves the "Big 3" running scared as their membership base dwindles day by day.
@tomic
Interesting thought and one that I'd not considered. It gives rise to the question of what turns a formerly devout person to atheisim?
I think oppression will do it even better than indoctrination. Education also will do it, but only to an inquiring mind. Too many minds watch sitcoms and Jerry Springer, dress up on Sunday, and inquire not at all.
Hmm.
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 22:08:58 [Permalink]
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No Sunday school and other indoctrinations help break the chain. Who knows, maybe religion will bloom there again but for now there are an awful lot of atheists. As we have seen elsewhere Europe is also experiencing a decline in church influence.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 23:03:52 [Permalink]
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RD Asks:
"What evidence in the New Testament would you consider probative?"
Ideally taking two fundamental premises of historical inquiry into consideration, namely: 1. Aristotle's Maxim that we "should give the ancient document in question the benefit of the doubt" since we weren't there and its writer claims that he/she was; 2. The Ancient Document Rule, which states that a document which is found in its normal custodial place should be received as long as it's free from both internal contradictions and found not to be in error about external known facts.
With these two principals in mind the entire New Testament would qualify. However, I'll just take three for starters:
(1). John 19:25-37,Has an eyewitness account of the crucifixion with some
corroborative medical evidence to substantiate it to the skeptical mind .Namely
verse 34 states that when they "pierced Jesus' side with a spear , bringing a . sudden flow of blood and water" this is an accurate description pericardial
and pleural effusion (hardly common knowledge in John's day ) .This brief but
accurate description witnesses to the next verse which states "The man who saw
it has given testimony , and his testimony is true." ;(2&3) Are Romans 1:1-4
and 1st Corinthians 15: 1-8,Contain Pre-Pauline Aramaic Creeds,
dating to approximately AD 36/37. They definitely demonstrate that the early
Church had accurate historical knowledge of Jesus.
Archeology Confirms The Bible's Reliability
At the turn of this century, liberal theologians began to question the validity of the Bible, saying that it was full of historical inaccuracies. Right after this wave of criticism arose, a new series of monumental archeological discoveries were made which countered every one of these arguments.
For example, there had never been any historical record of the court where Jesus Christ was tried by Pilate - called the "Gabbatha" or pavement in John 19:13. Many said, "It's a myth. See ... the Bible is not historical."
William F. Albright, in The Archeology of Palestine, shows that this court was the court of the Tower of Antonia, which was the Roman military headquarters of Rome in Jerusalem. The court was destroyed between 66 A.D. - 70 A.D. during the siege of Jerusalem. It was left buried when the city was rebuilt in the time of Hadrian, and not discovered until recently.
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 12/03/2002 10:38:07 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2002 : 23:42:34 [Permalink]
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Tell us Slate and Rd do you really believe that over 10 volumes of the Ante-Nicene Fathers incompasing over 275 years of History were planted by latter Church officals
What's the big deal? The Roman Catholic Church had an office (a division) that "corrected" history. This office existed for thundreds of years.
Take a look at the Catholic Encyclopedia and see if you can find one single Ante-Nicene Father whose original work exists. There are none. Justin Martyr probably had the most books credited to him but there are no copies before Eusebius. Even the CE admits that the best known Justin Martyr story is a fairy tale.
And, again, Ante-Nicene Fathers do not an historic Jesus make. You still have no records of a real Jesus. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
| Edited by - Slater on 12/02/2002 23:43:49 |
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