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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2001 : 03:15:57 [Permalink]
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A very nice site and appearantly it is done by a teacher. 
To be fair to creationists one has to admit that many things on the lists are just different facets of the same problem. And a lot of the things mentioned are things they are not even aware of, ignore, misunderstand but not necessarily hate.
If you really come down to it they are just mildly annoyed by things like facts and logic. They hate only other people(on whom they can project their own fears of inadequacy and their shame about their own lack of faith.)
The other essays on the page a wort a look as well.(Except the one about the Dinos)
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2001 : 04:55:06 [Permalink]
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When I first went to that site I had a good laugh at quite a lot of it.
Abondon Drugs, say no to Religion |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2001 : 12:04:51 [Permalink]
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Great webpage Piltdown.
Sometimes when I come across a babbling creationist, I'll ask 'em what they know of and why don't they follow the ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Apache Indian, or the thousands of different religious creation stories.
This will usually get 'em wound up with their head bouncing around like a spring-headed dashboard doll.
Makes for a great Kodak moment.
Below is yet another moronic letter to the editor on my hometown newspaper site.
Read the one on evolution. Truely pathetic.
These letters started weeks ago from a article about a mammoth fossil dig in Texas going on with a creationist running the site. The end of the article has his statement of the earth only being 6,000 years old!
I've grown tired of writing re's to the editor.
Have at it!
See if you get published. I'll buy you a beer! 
http://www.reporternews.com/2001/opinion/letters0702.html
When you screw up, be sure it isn't a slow news day. |
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Jim
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2001 : 19:34:30 [Permalink]
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I really like this one:
Creationism is about believing without question a particular interpretation of scripture. Indeed, in a belief system of that nature, any questioning or original thought about the revealed knowledge is not only incorrect, it is sinful. (In genuine science, on the other hand, questioning and testing of accepted or authoritative beliefs is the method--it's what you're supposed to do. No wonder creationists detest and distrust science, and almost always fail to understand how it works.)
Who ever told you scientific method was a sin? Give me an example of this from scripture.
Jim |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 11:35:05 [Permalink]
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I've been seeing a few previews on a PBS series called "Evolution" to be broadcast this fall. Looks like a good'en. All except maybe the last one.
Here's a head's up on the episodes....
-Randy
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/about.html
About the Television Series
Evolution will premiere on PBS September 24-27, 2001 (check local listings).
Here are brief descriptions of each of the episodes.
Program 1: Darwin's Dangerous Idea (2 hour Premiere)
For 21 years, Charles Darwin kept his theory of evolution secret from all
but a few friends. He confided to one: "It is like confessing to a murder."
His torment resonates in society today - in the challenge his incredibly
powerful idea poses to our understanding of our world and ourselves. We
interweave the drama in key moments of Darwin's life with documentary
sequences of current research, linking past to present and introducing major
concepts of evolutionary theory. We also explore why Darwin's "dangerous
idea" matters perhaps even more today than it did in his own time, and how
it conveys the power of science to explain the past and predict the future
of life on earth.
Program 2: Great Transformations (1 hour)
What caused the incredible diversity of life on earth, and how have complex
life forms, including humans, evolved? Is there direction to evolution? And
is human intelligence inevitable? We focus on evolution's "great
transformations" - among them the development of a standard four-limbed body
plan, the journey from water to land, the return of marine mammals to the
sea, and the emergence of humans. Driven by a combination of opportunism and
a genetic "toolkit," these astounding leaps forward define the arc of
evolution. And they suggest that every living creature on earth today, and
every species that has ever existed, is a variation on a grand genetic
theme - a member of one, and only one, tree of life.
Program 3: Extinction! (1 hour)
Some 99.9 percent of all the species that have ever lived are now extinct.
While cataclysmic events on earth have pruned the tree of life, extinction
also opens the door to diversity, carving out room for new species to emerge
and thrive. This film explores the causes of the five mass extinctions that
have occurred over the life of the planet - and takes us to the sources of
extinctions happening today. In doing so, it confronts a frightening notion:
Are we humans causing the next mass extinction - the sixth in the history of
life on earth? If so, what does evolutionary theory predict for the world we
will leave to our descendants?
Program 4: The Evolutionary Arms Race (1 hour)
"Survival of the fittest." - Raw competition? Or, a level of cooperation
indispensable to life? Evolution tells us that both are important. We
explore our own spiraling arms race with microorganisms, the only entities
that can pose a threat to our existence. We follow the struggles of medical
detectives uncovering the roots of epidemics and trace the alarming spread
of resistance among pathogens that cause disease, like the new virulent
tuberculosis - nicknamed "Ebola with wings." Interactions between species
are among the most powerful evolutionary forces on earth, and understanding
them may be key to our own survival.
Program 5: Why Sex? (1 hour)
In evolutionary terms, sex is more important than life itself - without
progeny, we are evolutionary losers. Sex fuels evolutionary change, by
adding variation to the gene pool and eliminating unsatisfactory traits. We
look at the endless variety of sexual expression and the powerful hold sex
exerts over all living things. And we explore how the need to pass on our
genes has shaped our own bodies, minds, and lives. Some scientists believe
that art, literature, music - in fact all of human culture - may be the
ultimate result of our sexual drives.
Program 6: The Mind's Big Bang (1 hour)
Anatomically modern humans existed more than 100,000 years ago, but with no
art, crude technology, and primitive social interaction. Then 50,000 years
ago, something happened - a creative, technological, and social explosion,
and humans came to dominate the planet. This was a pivot point in our
development, the time when the human mind truly emerged. What made this
moment so different? We examine forces that may have contributed to the
breakthrough, enabling us to prevail over our relatives, the Neanderthals,
who co-existed with us for tens of thousands of years. And we explore where
this power of mind may lead us, as the culture we create overtakes our own
biological development.
Program 7: What About God? (1 hour)
Of all the species on earth, we alone attempt to explain who we are and how
we came to be, through the prisms of both science and religion. How has the
tension between the two played out? Today, the theory of evolution still is
dogged by controversy. This program explores the creationist movement and
its arguments by drawing on real human stories of people struggling to find
a balance between faith and reason. Through the perceptions of theistic
scientists and credible religionists, we underscore the point that science
and religion are compatible, although they play very different roles in
assigning order to the universe and a purpose to life.
"Evolution is both fact and theory. Creationism is neither." - Unknown
Edited by - randy on 07/17/2001 11:36:37 |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 11:43:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Through the perceptions of theistic
scientists and credible religionists, we underscore the point that science
and religion are compatible, although they play very different roles in
assigning order to the universe and a purpose to life.
Then why are they dragging religion into this series? If there is a religious show on, are scientists brought out to talk about how science and religion are compatible yet play different roles?
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Jim
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 12:25:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Through the perceptions of theistic
scientists and credible religionists, we underscore the point that science
and religion are compatible, although they play very different roles in
assigning order to the universe and a purpose to life.
Then why are they dragging religion into this series? If there is a religious show on, are scientists brought out to talk about how science and religion are compatible yet play different roles?
Not always. Some people see science and religion as opposing views. I do not. I see good science as a compliment to the Bible (good religion), even though neither science nor "religion" has answered all of the questions.
Science and "religion" both attempt to explain origins of life, among other things. Therefore, in my opinion, they do not serve different roles. They, in fact, compliment one another, if you wipe away all of the crap that comes with both.
Jim
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 13:13:35 [Permalink]
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I was just going through the web site at the top of the page and I was going over the dude's page on "The Genesis Flood" and I came across this:
quote:
They never, of course, clearly define "kind", because any such definition would create more problems in biological classification than it solved (and reveal how little they know about species diversity). Be that as it may, if a pair of the bovine "kind" walked off the Ark a few thousand years ago, they have had to evolve into all 24 present species and uncounted varieties and breeds of wild and domestic cattle since then. (Creationists: you really don't want to know how many species of the bat "kind" there are. And don't even think about beetles .)
After I had read that bit I commented to myeslf: "Insects alone would blow a whole in the Noah Flood so big, you could drive a tank through it with the tallest person on Earth standing on it and still have plenty of headroom. Insects, going from just two little bugs to what we have now, millions upon millions of different types of insects. And that's only since the flood. Bwha-ha-ha-ha! ROTFLMAO"
Talk about your imposibble scenarios. 
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 14:12:38 [Permalink]
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to piltdown
amen brother!
a fair number of my students are being raised as biblical literalists. i know because they chastize me whenever i comment on the mass extinction 65MM years ago or the big bang. some of these kids are quite bright, so it saddens me that their parents raise them to not think. on the bright side, my honors geometry class will introduce the kids to logic and formal proofs and how arguments are falsified.
comrade billyboy |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 18:32:57 [Permalink]
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Jim writes:
quote:
Not always. Some people see science and religion as opposing views. I do not. I see good science as a compliment to the Bible (good religion), even though neither science nor "religion" has answered all of the questions.
Science and "religion" both attempt to explain origins of life, among other things. Therefore, in my opinion, they do not serve different roles. They, in fact, compliment one another, if you wipe away all of the crap that comes with both.
.........WHAT????????
Are you serious? |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 22:52:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Science and "religion" both attempt to explain origins of life, among other things. Therefore, in my opinion, they do not serve different roles. They, in fact, compliment one another, if you wipe away all of the crap that comes with both.
Jim
Been sitting here for the last hour trying to think of what science the bible is complementary of. It's got me stumped. Is chicanery a science?
Of course if the question was what sciences does the NT or the OT contradicts, then I have no trouble at all.
Astronomy, Archeology, Anthropology, Anatomy, Aeronautics, Biology, Botany, Chemistry, Cosmology, Geology, Geography, Geometry (OT says Pi is 3), Linguistics, Meteorology, All the branches of medicine, Oceanography, Physics, Physiology, Paleontology, Sociology, Seismology, Vulcanology, Zoology.
Can you think of any I've missed?
"Wipe away the crap" from religion and you are left with a lot of out of work hucksters.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
Edited by - slater on 07/17/2001 22:55:26 |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 02:08:14 [Permalink]
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Good'en there Slater.
quote:
Science and "religion" both attempt to explain origins of life, among other things. Therefore, in my opinion, they do not serve different roles.
Since they do not serve different roles, maybe we can inject just a tidpit of science into the bible. Let's take the Noah's Ark story. It only covers a couple of pages in the bible......
1.GE 6:15 The size of Noah's Ark was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each pair of, what? - up to 10,000,000 species to be taken aboard. And what about food?
2.GE 7:19-20 The flood covered the earth with water fifteen cubits (twenty plus feet) above the highest mountains.(Note: This would require steady, worldwide rainfall at the rate of about 6 inches per minute, 360 inches per hour, 8640 inches per day--for 40 days and nights--so as to cover the entire earth with an endless ocean 5 miles deep, thus burying 29,000 ft. Mt. Everest under 22 ft. of water. How did the author know the depth of the water? Did Noah take soundings? And where has all this water gone?)
3.GE 6:7, 6:17 God orders the destruction of man and beast and fowls of the air.....Guess the mammals and fishes of the streams, rivers, lakes, and oceans lead clean, sinless lives.
4. GE 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
....what happened to the other story of "one male - one female"? Same with fowls. Going with these different numbers we'd come up with perhaps 50,000,000 critters to ark in there.
5.GE 7:6 Noah was 600 years old when the floods came....what can I say?!
6.GE 7:24 Flood lasted 150 days....Now just where in the world could a dove find a olive leaf that was recognizable after 5 months under water? And where would all that H2O come from? Not here.
7.Hmmmm...how did the creatures from the other side of the globe make it to the Ark? And make it back to their respected locales,...Australia, Hawaii, Artic, Antartic, the itty-bitty snail darter fish. Gotta count fish now, since their boundries were flooded. And ALL OTHER fish that are specific to their locales.
8. I wonder too, about all these nasty species-specific (ss) diseases god dreamed up. For us humans, and ALL of these deadly ss diseases, - and let's not forget the thousands (millions) of influenza bug types, infectious diseases. Has to be a bunch more here. Poor old 600 year old Noah and his crew, must have been quite a sorry lot, carrying all those plagues. How many thousands of different e.coli are there. Wonder about critter pathogens. How many thousands are there? Maybe we can look at each one and, oops - male and female!,...where was I? - look at each one at a later date to see if it could kill it's host in under 150 days.
9.Incest - too terrible to imagine, but it goes on all over the place in the old testament, and with god's permission and blessing. Who beget Adam's grandkiddies? I'm sure it wasn't the mailman. Wonder if Adam was smart enough he was married to his wife and his gkid's grandmother. And of Noah's crew, and all that begetting going on....nowhere in the human genome is there a bottleneck, such as required with the few "survivors of the great flood".
10. One last little point of science fun with the bible....in the Artic and Antartic and everywhere around the world, thru millions and millions of core samples taken, by umpteen counties and thousands of geologist, not one bit of evidence has been brought forth supporting a claim of a world-wide flood.
When you get down to it, the Ark story just doesn't hold water.
-thanks to SAB for a few points.
Edited by - randy on 07/18/2001 02:11:06 |
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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 05:32:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Of course if the question was what sciences does the NT or the OT contradicts, then I have no trouble at all.
Astronomy, Archeology, Anthropology, Anatomy, Aeronautics, Biology, Botany, Chemistry, Cosmology, Geology, Geography, Geometry (OT says Pi is 3), Linguistics, Meteorology, All the branches of medicine, Oceanography, Physics, Physiology, Paleontology, Sociology, Seismology, Vulcanology, Zoology.
Can you think of any I've missed?
I think you missed quite a lot, but most importantly History and it's many sub-branches. It also seems to contradict minor stuff like Theology.
I don't see any sane person using the Bible trying to explain how the world came to be. A lot try to explain why using the Bible and using science for how.
The latter category to my knowledge even includes pepole like the Pope.
It is easy to see how somebody using science and religion like this could think that they are complimentary.
Of Course it only works to some degree until science starts to contradict more and more of the why.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 10:17:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
9.Incest - too terrible to imagine, but it goes on all over the place in the old testament, and with god's permission and blessing. Who beget Adam's grandkiddies? I'm sure it wasn't the mailman. Wonder if Adam was smart enough he was married to his wife and his gkid's grandmother. And of Noah's crew, and all that begetting going on....nowhere in the human genome is there a bottleneck, such as required with the few "survivors of the great flood".
When Cain slew Abel, Cain took a wife from the land of Nod. It puts some question as to whom God made first. The document seems to chronicle just a few bloodlines instead of all bloodlines. (IMHO, impossible.) It also did not say if Noah had the only Ark.
Ambiguity, rife in the old and new testaments, is part of the document. Anyone who interprets the Bible as a complete account is fooling themselves. Often times, Creationists fall into these fallacies.
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2001 : 12:12:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ambiguity, rife in the old and new testaments, is part of the document. Anyone who interprets the Bible as a complete account is fooling themselves. Often times, Creationists fall into these fallacies.
A complete account? It's not actually an account at all. It is one "creation myth" among hundreds. A fairy tale, a fiction, by a bunch of primitive nomads in the scrub lands of the Near East sitting around camp fires of dried camel dung.
In Polynesia they tell how the great hero/god Maui took a giant fish hook and pulled up all the islands of the world (they thought the entire world was only islands in the ocean) to give mankind a place to live.
Their proof is that they can still see the fish hook in the sky--what we call Scorpio.
This piece of fantasy is no more of an account, complete or other wise, than the Bible one.
One should give credit where credit is due.
There is none due here.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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