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micketymoc
New Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2001 : 11:37:33
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Hey. I'm doing my part to uphold rationality in this little corner of the Internet - and we've got a fight on our hands.
The enemy - mad-dog creationists with a grudge, and no compunctions against cut-and-pasting verbatim from Morris et al.
I'm no scientist - just a regular rationalist who shares your distaste for pseudoscience and Creationist dishonesty. Problem is, they've pulled the equivalent of a stab in the back - with posts upon posts of incomprehensible ICR bullcrap.
Any knowledgeable scientist out there with at least an inkling of the bull they're pouring out? Desperately need consultants. Or someone who's actually willing to jump in and slag away. Hey, if your idea of fun is busting a few Creationist heads, this is the perfect opportunity! :)
You can view the beginning of the thread here -
http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=50176&pagenumber=1
Click on the seventh page...
http://www.pinoyexchange.com/forums/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=50176&pagenumber=7
to see where the fun is really starting.
Hope someone can help. 'Cause fighting insanity is kinda getting lonely. :)
[note from @tomic: Topic title edited for length]
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 20:49:25 [Permalink]
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you can probably find all the facts you want at
http://www.talkorigins.org/
but look at the original poll question; it badly mis-represents current scientific ideas about human origins. as i undestand it humans and apes evolved from some common ancestor. it would have been more accurate to say humans evolved from pond scum.
comrade billyboy |
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micketymoc
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2001 : 23:04:48 [Permalink]
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I've gone over TalkOrigins - some replies, like that incomprehensible uranium technical thingie, needs more than an amateur response.
Most of my answers came from TalkOrigins, anyway. And I've got the feeling that the Creationist in question doesn't understand his own post, anyway.
Thanks for the input. :)
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2001 : 13:50:11 [Permalink]
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creationists tend to ignore facts they find inconvenient. none so blind as one who refuses to see and all of that.
comrade billyboy |
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rickm
Skeptic Friend
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2001 : 19:36:12 [Permalink]
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micketymoc:
I read through the complete discussion, although I am not educated enough to offer any real help I must say that the YEC's are quite hard headed and unable to discern fantasy from reality. I do not think that any amount of information could dissuade them. Even if gawd himself came down and personaly told them that evolution happened, they would go on to quote Kent Hovind and persist in arguing with gawd himself. Perhaps though with the good arguments you showed, some lurkers there who were borderline may come to see fact instead of fiction.
"What would chairs look like if our knees bent the other way" |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2001 : 19:55:16 [Permalink]
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Creationists are too boring (and stupid) to bother with. I prefer promoting good science and voting for those school board members, senators, and representatives (and presidents) who are in favor of science.
It is sad that there are so many of the imbeciles in some kind of governmental office.
But they are BORING...
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 02:36:57 [Permalink]
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micketymoc, I read through several of a*'s postings and I believe you're right, he/she is playing the creationist arguments straight out of a book. I'd have to research nearly all of the specific claims in order to refute them effectively. Personally, I can't devote that kind of time to a debate like this. I'd guess there are other things you'd like to do as well--like have a life, eh?
ljbrs is on target. Disengage your ego from the argument and simply tell the truth--that although you disagree you cannot spend all your free time chasing down and refuting every detail of the creationist belief system. I think it's good to bow out of a contentious thread gently and humorously if it's at all possible--any fool can flame and run, but it takes a real human being to go out with a smile and a joke.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 08:27:08 [Permalink]
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Hey, on the home page here is an evolution/creation argument. I think it was done by Kil. See if that's any help. It was an e-mail debate.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 17:45:14 [Permalink]
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micketymok:
I tried accessing that site, but it was very difficult for me to exit normally and the site would keep popping back up on the screen continuously. That same thing occurred a few days ago when I tried to click on the URLs.
I strongly do not think that anybody can be swayed from Creationist beliefs by reason, since Creationism is far, far from being reasonable. You could lose your sense of life beating your head against a brick wall with these people. In most cases, keep far away from Creationism vs. Evolutionism sites (except the one right here). You do not want to lose your sense of scientific correctness. Of course, if you want to experience a masochistic party, then go to these sites to punish your sensibilities. Do not forget your whip and all of the other paraphernalia necessary for such a *party*...
I have acquaintances who are Creationists. I do not let on to anybody about my non-religious thinking (using, instead, the truth that my religion is firmly based on the idea that whatever exists must exist and if their religion agrees with that, then we both agree). I do not dislike Creationists. I feel very, very sorry for them. They belong to a netherworld. I never attempt to discuss their ideas and never get into any serious conversation with them on the subject of religion. Of course, the conflicting mind-set sometimes makes all conversation impossible, because there are always subtleties in any discussion (even about the weather) which would go against the thinking of Creationists, and real conversation for any length of time with them would never, ever work. One learns to smile at them (even grin), say *Hello!* and go on one's merry way...
So look at it for what it is. Changing them is impossible, but the attempt could make you physically ill.
Good luck. You shall need it.
ljbrs   
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 17:51:58 [Permalink]
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micketymoc:
I tried accessing that site, but it was very difficult for me to exit normally and the site would keep popping back up on the screen continuously. That same thing occurred a few days ago when I tried to click on the URLs.
I strongly do not think that anybody can be swayed from Creationist beliefs by reason, since Creationism is far, far from being reasonable. You could lose your sense of life beating your head against a brick wall with these people. In most cases, keep far away from Creationism vs. Evolutionism sites (except the one right here). You do not want to lose your sense of scientific correctness. Of course, if you want to experience a masochistic party, then go to these sites to punish your sensibilities. Do not forget your whip and all of the other paraphernalia necessary for such a *party*...
I have acquaintances who are Creationists. I do not let on to anybody about my non-religious thinking (using, instead, the truth that my religion is firmly based on the idea that whatever exists must exist and if their religion agrees with that, then we both agree). I do not dislike Creationists. I feel very, very sorry for them. They belong to a netherworld. I never attempt to discuss their ideas and never get into any serious conversation with them on the subject of religion. Of course, the conflicting mind-set sometimes makes all conversation impossible, because there are always subtleties in any discussion (even about the weather) which would go against the thinking of Creationists, and real conversation for any length of time with them would never, ever work. One learns to smile at them (even grin), say *Hello!* and go on one's merry way...
So look at it for what it is. Changing them is impossible, but the attempt could make you physically ill.
Good luck. You shall need it.
ljbrs
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe
*Nothing is more damaging to a new truth than an old error.* Goethe |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 21:28:13 [Permalink]
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I suggest you look at Tommy Huxleys fan mail on this site. He has gone over just about every silly pseudoscientific piece of bullcrap that creationists have come up with in one letter or another. He is also a good read.
http://www.skepticfriends.org/letter.asp
The Evil Skeptic
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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micketymoc
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2001 : 22:35:29 [Permalink]
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Dog_Ed- thanks for the advice. I'm now thinking of an appropriate exit strategy. I'm convinced that all they want is the last word - fine, let them have the last word. As long as I was the only one who made sense on that thread...
Kil- reading the link now. I'm a writer back here in the Philippines, and how I'd LOVE to tell everybody about the stuff that goes on down here! Hoo-boy! Maybe some other time. I'll post about it when I get the chance.
ljbrs - I'm no masochist. And I've already got an exit strategy in mind. I just realized, I think about that damn thread ALL THE TIME! I'm letting it get in the way of work and life. Just plain unhealthy. So I'll just let it go. Give me some time. I'll post it here when I do so.
Thanks, y'all. Blushing from the warm welcome.
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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2001 : 00:59:44 [Permalink]
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micketymoc: I just read further in the thread on Pinoy, and from my perspective you and H_Athiest got the best of the argument by far. It seemed obvious to me that you guys were speaking from knowledge and your opponents were mostly regurgitating "facts" they didn't really understand.
You know, it's quite interesting--a topic on this forum, started by a member in France, questioned why creationism was so visible in the USA. The assumption by pretty much everyone on the thread (as I recall) was that the rest of the world was spared the ultraconservative Christian scourge, but it appears you guys have a strong contingent in the Philippines. A case of semi-parochialism on our part, I guess.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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micketymoc
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2001 : 19:16:20 [Permalink]
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You know what? I plumb forgot about that damn thread. Thanks for the input - as long as it looks like I've made sense for the past month that I've wasted my life on it, I guess I've made my case.
The Philippines is a strongly Catholic country - even more Catholic than the Pope, if that's at all possible. There was a slight furor when Gerri Halliwell came here on behalf of the U.N. to talk about safe sex - a bishop compared her arrival to "sending Salman Rushdie as an ambassador of goodwill to a Muslim country." Oh, please.
Hardcore idiocy often follows hardcore religion. Though whatsisname Creationist isn't Catholic (there's a strong Protestant born-again faction in here too, trying to grab a little piece of the action that the Vatican's set up here), you can see what nonsense we have to face here, on a day to day basis. Daily sightings of the Virgin. Faith Healers (I interviewed one of them once, the same guy who treated Andy Kaufman before he kicked the bucket, Kaufman I mean). Archbishops with a mean conservative streak.
You think you have it bad there. Oh boy. :-)
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Humethrian
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 03:14:32 [Permalink]
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Perhaps a quote from Eric Hoffer's The True Believer can help explain:
quote:
There is apparently some connection between dissatisfaction with oneself and proneness to credulity. The urge to escape our real self is also an urge to escape the rational and the obvious. The refusal to see ourselves as we are develops a distaste for facts and cold logic. There is no hope for the frustrated in the actual and the possible. Salvation can come to them only from the miraculous, which seeps through a crack in the iron wall of inexorable reality. They asked to be deceived.
When science battles creationism, it grants it a status it does not deserve. Just getting into the ring allows the true believer to feel that he/she deserves to be there.
If it weren't for the fact that these cowards are attempting to force our education system to grant creationism equal status with science, why, we would pat them on the head and say: "Of course it's true," the same way we pat children who want to believe in Santa Claus.
We really need to keep in mind that these people are desperate to hold on to their fantasies. The true believer sees that we "believe" in science, rather than use it. They do not understand the difference between belief and knowledge in the same manner as that evinced in the rational mind.
Even if we were to convince them that creationsm is crap, and science is not, they would become "converted" to science, and begin to believe in it.
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 07:24:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Even if we were to convince them that creationsm is crap, and science is not, they would become "converted" to science, and begin to believe in it.
Wow. That's a disturbing thought.... Are you saying that the type of person who unquestioningly believes something can never be taught to doubt?
-me. |
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