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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2001 :  16:43:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
quote:

quote:

Ambiguity, rife in the old and new testaments, is part of the document. Anyone who interprets the Bible as a complete account is fooling themselves. Often times, Creationists fall into these fallacies.


A complete account? It's not actually an account at all. It is one "creation myth" among hundreds. A fairy tale, a fiction, by a bunch of primitive nomads in the scrub lands of the Near East sitting around camp fires of dried camel dung.
In Polynesia they tell how the great hero/god Maui took a giant fish hook and pulled up all the islands of the world (they thought the entire world was only islands in the ocean) to give mankind a place to live.
Their proof is that they can still see the fish hook in the sky--what we call Scorpio.

This piece of fantasy is no more of an account, complete or other wise, than the Bible one.

One should give credit where credit is due.
There is none due here.



The Bible is much much more then simple a creation myth. It is a collection of many myths and stories over a large period of time.

Of course the world was not crated in 7 days, of course every living being alive today is nota descendant of a creature that lived on noahs ark. However that does not mean that everything in the Bible is just made up. The Bibile is bound to have some historical accurate parts. The difficulty is to find them.

Noahs Ark may very well have been real, dismissing the possibilty of its existence just because the only know reference to it was in a text riddle with obvious myths would be a mistake. It makes the accuracy of a particular part of the text unlikely, if it is so riddle with obvious nonsense as the bible, but it does not make it impossible.

Considering the volume of the Old Testament some references must carry some historic truth even if only a very small part of it is actually true.

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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2001 :  17:51:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
quote:
Of course the world was not crated in 7 days, of course every living being alive today is nota descendant of a creature that lived on noahs ark. However that does not mean that everything in the Bible is just made up. The Bibile is bound to have some historical accurate parts.


What's a shame is the the defenders of the Bible seem to think that because there are a few shreds of truth in the it that you can therefore accept it all as truth.

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Boron10
Religion Moderator

USA
1266 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2001 :  00:39:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Boron10 a Private Message
The real question is: how can we lift these truths from the Bible?

Not all change is progress.
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Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2001 :  11:56:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message
quote:

The real question is: how can we lift these truths from the Bible?



Maybe one of these will work.....

*With a magnifying glass and a pair of tweezers
*With a ouija board
*With a jackhammer
*With a truckload of molecular acid
*Ever try to catch a greased pig?
*Call up the Sorcerer's Apprentice
*Hire this person's help
*Record a gaggle of drunken Jehovah Witness's, play in reverse at 16 rpm
*Enter anti-matter universe, check for coherent copy
*Give Pat Robertson several hits of Orange Sunshine LSD, wait three hours, check to see if he's more intelligible
*Ask anyone sleeping on a bus stop bench for the meaning of it all
*Recrute any chatty 3 year old to explain "In the beginning..."
*Wire-up about 8 IBM Deep Blue computers, enter bible-code and pac-man software to crunch data
*Run 3,000 years of billions of biblical interpretations into blender set on high; strain, add to sauce pan with one bay leaf and 30lb. of clarified butter; reduce down to two words; discard "kill" - save "smile"
*Forget about it; wake up skeptical tomorrow and excited to be a part of this great universe!

---bound to be some others,....anyone?



Edited by - Randy on 07/19/2001 13:47:43
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend

USA
188 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2001 :  13:41:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send comradebillyboy a Private Message
jeez, what a bunch of cynics. i saw the rev. dr. jerry fawell on tv commenting about the creation-evil-ution controversy and he said that ther are no, not even one, contradictions or errors in the bible. who are we to question the world's leading authority on christian reality?

comrade billyboy
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie

USA
4826 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2001 :  14:15:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Valiant Dancer's Homepage Send Valiant Dancer a Private Message
quote:

jeez, what a bunch of cynics. i saw the rev. dr. jerry fawell on tv commenting about the creation-evil-ution controversy and he said that ther are no, not even one, contradictions or errors in the bible. who are we to question the world's leading authority on christian reality?

comrade billyboy



Hmmm. College of Cardinals must have cleaned it up in the 1300's. :)

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2001 :  20:53:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
quote:

The real question is: how can we lift these truths from the Bible?



I think the real question is why have we been stuck with only the pathetic neurotic mythology of a third rate Semitic culture when the world is filled with beautiful myths?

So what do these Jewish myths say? Not the Romans, nor the Greeks, nor the Egyptians, Babylonians, Phoenicians, Chin, Aztecs, Toletecs, the people of Timbuktu--none of these great civilizations knew anything about a one true god. Only the Jews knew, and they didn't seem to be that sure. And you buy this hogwash?!

You cannot be considered educated unless you are fluent in the Bible. But what about stories like Odysseus and the nymph/goddess Calypso? Or the Aka-toka legend of Tonga Tapu, ever heard that? How about the beautiful love story of Diarmaid and Grainne, which evolved into Tristran and Isolte? The terrible secrets of the durgá way of the Black goddess Kali, anybody here heard of those?

Probably not, and yet you all know about Samson bopping some cretins on the head with an equine's mandible.

You've been gypped.

Theodosius the Great outlawed all other religions than the Imperial approved version of Christianity. Julian (the Apostate) tried to reinstate classical knowledge but was assassinated before he could accomplish his goal of saving Europe from the Dark Ages.
But it's the twenty-first century, we no longer need follow the dictates of the Emperor. Plus we are truly global now. Look at the membership of SFN. Less than 200 people, and yet so spread out across the face of the Earth that the sun never sets on SFN.

And you still think that you "can find truth" in the Bible of the Emperor and ignore every other story from every other culture.

There is no baby in that bath water, there never was, it's safe to toss it out.


-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
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@tomic
Administrator

USA
4607 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2001 :  21:04:50   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit @tomic's Homepage Send @tomic a Private Message
I'd just like to point out that the sun never sets because I leave the night light on

@tomic

Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
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Lars_H
SFN Regular

Germany
630 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2001 :  12:46:03   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Lars_H a Private Message
quote:

You cannot be considered educated unless you are fluent in the Bible. But what about stories like Odysseus and the nymph/goddess Calypso? Or the Aka-toka legend of Tonga Tapu, ever heard that? How about the beautiful love story of Diarmaid and Grainne, which evolved into Tristran and Isolte? The terrible secrets of the durgá way of the Black goddess Kali, anybody here heard of those?


The reason why an educated person in the western world should have read the bible and be atleast somewhat familar with christian mythology has not really much to do with religion. It is not because of it's quality or it's acurathy that you should have read the bible but because of it's enourmous impact on the culture you live. Many quotes, phrases, names, concepts and ideas we still use today have originated there, and an educated man should know about the origin of words he uses every day.

There are also many people 'out there' who still belive in the bible and you can interact with them far better when you know about the origin of their quirks. Just like you would probably learn about the reliogion of some primitive natives or others if you lived with them.

quote:

And you still think that you "can find truth" in the Bible of the Emperor and ignore every other story from every other culture.

There is no baby in that bath water, there never was, it's safe to toss it out.


I did not mean that I was searching for truth about 'Life, the Universe and Everything' or 'What's it all about? Seriously? When you get right down to it?', I meant that the Bible might contain bits of historical truth here and there. Not that I consider the history of this particular location in that paticular timeframe from the point of view of some nomadic shepheards tribe or other more important then anyother history. It is just that I am kind of a completeist and would hate to see some part of history go undocumented when it is not completly nessecery.

For some stuff we do not have any alternative references then the Bible. Just bacause the only surviving refernce to an event happens to be in a document, that is riddled with impossibilities, mythology, gods and miracles, does not mean that the event in question did not in fact happen.

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Greg
Skeptic Friend

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2001 :  20:35:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Greg an AOL message Send Greg a Private Message
quote:
For some stuff we do not have any alternative references then the Bible. Just bacause the only surviving refernce to an event happens to be in a document, that is riddled with impossibilities, mythology, gods and miracles, does not mean that the event in question did not in fact happen.


We do however, have archaeology. Modern archaeology is uncovering the truth from the mythology. Is the history of the region important? Yes, all ancient cultures should be studied and understood as our cultural ancestors, we're basically the same animals that we were 5000 years ago.

The earliest archaeologists of the Middle East in the 19th century used the Bible extensivly as a reference. It is not until fairly recently that a more critical use of the ancient texts has been the norm. In fact, there are a number of scholars that do not use the Bible as a source at all - it is all assumed to be mythology. These are known to their detracters as "Biblical Minimalists".

The interesting thing about the Hebrew Bible is that it appears to be a mythology with a historiography superimposed. Of course, that's where the problem with fundamentalism comes from.

Greg.

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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2001 :  11:35:52   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
Have they ever found Mt Sinai or Nazareth?

-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
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Greg
Skeptic Friend

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2001 :  21:44:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Greg an AOL message Send Greg a Private Message
quote:
Have they ever found Mt Sinai or Nazareth?


Oh man, you don't know how much digging through old references I have done since our last discussion of the origins of Christianity. All that despite a two week vacation in Vegas, but my interest has been rekindled.

Mt. Sinai is most certainly a mythic place. I can't find any good references yet but as I recall, some Medievel monks (Byzantine?) thought they had found it based on descriptions from the OT and there is a monastary there now.

Nazareth is a little more interesting. Neither the OT, Talmud, or Josephus mentions it despite the large number of cities and towns mentioned in Galilee by these sources. The earliest mention of Nazareth is from a 3rd or 4th century inscription found at Caesarea. There is a site that at least some archaeologists believe is Nazareth located about 1.5 miles notheast of Japha. Certainly, there are many unnamed settlements in the region of Galilee. Nazareth is thought to be one of these inconsequential 'hick' towns.

Greg.



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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular

USA
1447 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2001 :  08:38:31   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Tokyodreamer a Private Message
quote:

Have they ever found Mt Sinai or Nazareth?



Here's a couple of links to some recent articles about Mt. Sinai:

http://www.naplesnews.com/today/religion/d429108a.htm

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/article/Default.asp?CatID=10&ArticleID=57

------------

Ma gavte la nata!
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Slater
SFN Regular

USA
1668 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2001 :  18:02:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Slater a Private Message
I was just talking with an editor at one of the big publishing houses in New York. She was telling me that her mother, who is suffering from some dread ailment, is awaiting the arrival of a finger bone of St Anthony that an Aunt had procured for her while in Italy.
Now here's a subject, somewhat related to archaeology, that we haven't touched on.
Relics.
Since day one every Roman Church has had to have at least one relic.

My favorite is St Anne. Remember her, Jesus' grandma on his mom's side (?) She was the one who had the Immaculate Conception. As St Augustine of Hippo tells us in his hundreds of books "original sin" is passed on to the next generation by the sexual pleasure that creates the child. Kind of like spiritual herpes. That's why the God of Love sends unbaptized infants straight to Hell for all eternity.

Anne side-stepped this little problem, clever girl that she was.

Now in France at the great Cathedral of Chartres (which was built on the site of the center of Gaelic Druidism, according the Julius Caesar) is Nanna Christ's entire head, venerated and displayed in a beautiful shrine.

The cool thing is Anne's head is also on display at Lyons, at Apt, at Aix-la-Chapelle in France, at Duren in Germany, in Sicily, and her skull is at Bologna. With a Grand Mother who could do all of that it's no wonder her Boobala turned out Triune.



-------
The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it.
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Greg
Skeptic Friend

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2001 :  18:45:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Greg an AOL message Send Greg a Private Message
quote:
Here's a couple of links to some recent articles about Mt. Sinai:


TD,

Thanks for the links. I have read about the Saudi Arabian mountain before. I actually used to subscibe to both 'Bible Review' and it's sister publication 'Biblical Archaeology Review'. I found both publications to be fairly well balanced with different ideas given as equal amount of time as possible. The most entertaining part of each magazine were the letters section where fundamentalists would dis the publications mercilessly while demanding that their subscription be cancelled. Apparently, the names fooled them. They were not prepared for scholarly discussion.

Slater,

Since my most devout RC days, I have not had any 'faith' in relics. They are archaeologically worthless since there is absolutely no context to the body part in question. That is, the parts are far removed from their original place of rest and disturbed.

Greg.

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