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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2001 : 00:12:54 [Permalink]
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Quote:
As St Augustine of Hippo tells us in his hundreds of books "original sin" is passed on to the next generation by the sexual pleasure that creates the child.
Does that mean that IVF babies and Al Bundys children are without sin?
Up, up and away!!! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 01:00:53 [Permalink]
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Since historical places were brought into this. Thought you all would like to know that PBS is running a show on the tomb of christ - or at least what is believed to be his tomb.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 09:11:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Since historical places were brought into this. Thought you all would like to know that PBS is running a show on the tomb of christ - or at least what is believed to be his tomb.
When is this going to air Trish?
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Jim
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 16:31:33 [Permalink]
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This has got to be the most biased and ridiculous discussion I have paticipated in. You guys claim to be "educated thinkers", yet look back through the replies and tell me where the facts are? Where are the "educated" replies? All you do is gang up on someone whose view opposes yours. I guess you have that right, this is your board.
Some points to ponder:
1. The historicity of the Bible is well defended. Archeology has yet to come up with any true evidence that contradicts the Bible. On the contrary, more and more is being confirmed because of archeology. This is the fact, believe it or not.
2. If the Bible is so 'riddled' with inaccuracies and lies, why has it survived so long? Why has the text remained 99.99% in tact(dating back 2500 years or so)? Why is it so well venerated by historians (both biblical and secular)? Why is it such an important reference tool for archeologists? This is not my opinion, these are generally accepted facts! Tell me why?
3. The arrogance of man is to assume that he knows all facts and all conditions. The simple truth is that science has yet to map out about 5% of what is known to exist (particles) in this universe. So most of what we think is based on 5% knowledge, assuming we have the 5% right. Yet we'll tear the Bible apart when it reveals something that we don't understand, even though 99% of the history contained in the Bible is undisputed by most responsible scholars. Any translation errors are well documented. You want to fight over the 1%, be my guest.
4. 500 years ago scientists KNEW the earth was flat! Anyhting contrary was considered absurd.
5. Bottom line, I'm not willing to bet my eternity that the theory of evolution is correct and the Bible is wrong. Sorry, not a gamblin' man.
Thanks
Jim
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 20:11:25 [Permalink]
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Hello Jim.
This has got to be the most biased and ridiculous discussion I have paticipated in. You guys claim to be "educated thinkers", yet look back through the replies and tell me where the facts are? Where are the "educated" replies? All you do is gang up on someone whose view opposes yours. I guess you have that right, this is your board.
So you realize, of course, that by starting in such a pugnacious and disrespectful manner has, at the outset, forfeited any claims that you might later wish to make of "the moral high-ground."
As you wish, the gloves are off.
As for complaining about us having a bias-get real. Do you think that we don't know that that is the sole reason you came here to begin with? What does the word "bias" mean to you? Some one who doesn't accept your particular dogma? Are you bias free?
1. The historicity of the Bible is well defended. Archeology has yet to come up with any true evidence that contradicts the Bible. On the contrary, more and more is being confirmed because of archeology. This is the fact, believe it or not.
More and more what is being confirmed by whose archeology, where, when? You can't claim that you are making a point if you are being so intentionally vague.
What kind of archeological find would you accept as contradicting the bible? The corpse of Jesus still clutching his suicide note saying I'm sorry about that fig tree thing?
How about the actual archeological finds of the stories of Jesus existing hundreds of years before his birth? Those we have, will you accept them?
2. If the Bible is so 'riddled' with inaccuracies and lies, why has it survived so long? What has one to do with the other? Until quite recently the punishment for not believing in Jesus was death by fire. You will over look a lot of inaccuracies to avoid that. Now that our lives are safe we can point out inaccuracies to our hearts content.
Why has the text remained 99.99% in tact(dating back 2500 years or so)? You are correct it has remained consistent for more than 2500 years. But if you'll go to your calendar you'll see that it is only 2001. That pretty much puts the lie to it from the start.
Why do you ignore the fact that the books of the bible that were not consistent with those we have today were destroyed in 325 CE. They far outnumbered those that were kept.
Why is it so well venerated by historians (both biblical and secular)? Why is it venerated by those madmen who go wandering up and down Main Street with sandwich boards declaring the world is about to end?
Why is it such an important reference tool for archeologists?
Why are you blowing smoke up my ass?
This is not my opinion, these are generally accepted facts! Tell me why? These aren't facts at all. They are vague generalities. What Historians and what Archeologists are you talking about. All you are saying is that somebody, unnamed, somewhere, unnamed, thinks it's a good idea.
3. The arrogance of man is to assume that he knows all facts and all conditions. This "arrogance" is the defining difference between Science and religion. Religion claims to have all the answers-period. Science only claims that what few answers it does have are through honest observation and are always open to criticism and revision.
The simple truth is that science has yet to map out about 5% of what is known to exist (particles) in this universe.
Huh, what? What is this double talk? Maps of particles?
So most of what we think is based on 5% knowledge, assuming we have the 5% right.
You're not only going to have to supply some reference to support your many claims but for this one you're going to have to explain what the hell you are talking about.
Yet we'll tear the Bible apart when it reveals something that we don't understand, even though 99% of the history contained in the Bible is undisputed by most responsible scholars.
You are a liar.
There are no historical records of Jesus.
There are no historical records of Mary.
There are no historical records for any of the twelve Apostles.
Not one fragment of a record.
However they can all be found in pagan myth that predates the Christian era.
It's called Mithraism, Jim.
Any translation errors are well documented. You want to fight over the 1%, be my guest.
Translation? You mean god, who knows everything, didn't know that you speak English? Why would something from god need to be translated? The need for a translation, good or other wise, proves that this was not written or inspired by any god.
4. 500 years ago scientists KNEW the earth was flat! Anyhting contrary was considered absurd. That's a myth you know. Educated people have not only known that the world was round, they had a very close estimate of it's size by 800 BCE
5. Bottom line, I'm not willing to bet my eternity that the theory of evolution is correct and the Bible is wrong. Sorry, not a gamblin' man.
This last one is so wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to start.
Evolution is a branch of science. It is not a philosophy. It has nothing to do with religion. It contains nothing about morality or ethics. You may as well condemn Meteorology because the OT says that rain comes out of little doors in the sky.
Roman Catholics and all the major denominations of Protestantism have no difficulty with Evolution at all. Only a few fringe sects are troubled by it, so I can take it that you are not a main stream Christian but rather a member of some small group or cult.
You do not have eternal life. Like every other person who ever lived you will one day die. The alternative is getting older and older and older. Not something one would wish for.
If you are a member of one of these fringe Christian groups then, following the NT, you have already gambled with eternity and lost.
Jim when you are dealing with Skeptics you have to be able to back up what you claim with facts. If you have any I'd love to see them. If you don't then you should be ashamed of yourself for spreading stories you can't prove (and therefore can't know yourself) to be true.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 20:32:38 [Permalink]
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I checked out some of that show on the tomb of Jesus. The most striking thing about the show was that it was ALL conjecture and it was freely admitted. "This may be the real tomb but it's disputed etc etc."
The crew visited many possible sites but it was basically just a travelogue and some neat scenery.
All I can say to greg is go find some proof of Jesus. Any proof will do. Slater has asked for it a few times after it was said how common and easy to get this proof is. I should open a Forum called "Proof of Jesus" and we can watch how fast it doesn't fill up.
One other thing...there is an old saying about looking both ways before crossing the street. There should be a version of that for posting on a Skeptic site
 @tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 20:39:24 [Permalink]
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Slater steps up to the plate.....swings....he connects....and it's a long fly ball to center field....going....going....going....and it's outta here!!! And the crowd goes wild!!!Touch'em all, Slater.
Beautiful, Slater, just beautiful.
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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The Bad Astronomer
Skeptic Friend
137 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2001 : 23:19:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
How about the actual archeological finds of the stories of Jesus existing hundreds of years before his birth? Those we have, will you accept them?
Hey, what's this? I have never heard of such stories. Do you have a citation for them. I'd be interested in reading about this.
And incidentally, as you point out, the ancient Greeks did indeed know the Earth was not flat, and the radius Eratosthenes found was very close to the true value. A web search on his name will reveal the details. IMO it's fascinating.
*****
The Bad Astronomer
badastro@badastronomy.com
http://www.badastronomy.com
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 04:58:54 [Permalink]
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Warning: Flame Bait
Maybe we should make a post saying that jesus actually existed in the humour forum.
I mean the bible is a nice fictional document, it has a lot of porn stories, war, killing and other stuff like that, people dieing, rape stories, stories about homosexual relations, etc.
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 07:05:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
All I can say to greg is go find some proof of Jesus. Any proof will do.
I have never indicated that there is proof of Jesus existence. I think that Slater and I agree on that point. Where we may differ in opinion is on the early evolution of the Christian religion. Please don't ascribe to me assertions that I have never made.
Greg.
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 09:55:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why has the text remained 99.99% in tact(dating back 2500 years or so)? You are correct it has remained consistent for more than 2500 years. But if you'll go to your calendar you'll see that it is only 2001. That pretty much puts the lie to it from the start.
Why do you ignore the fact that the books of the bible that were not consistent with those we have today were destroyed in 325 CE. They far outnumbered those that were kept.
Ummmm. The Bible has been edited, severely. Most notably in the 1300's by the College of Cardinals. Entire Gospels were declared heretical and expunged. Any reference to the Archangel Uriel has been removed. (He was a major player in one of the heretical gospels.) The new testament wasn't written until 300 years after the supposed death of Christ in 33CE. The Bible as a document has been changed by the dogma of the Catholic Church at the time of editing. There is a quote in, I beleive, Revelations which says something to the effect that it is sinful to edit the Bible. This, BTW, was added by the college of Cardinals in the 1300's. The Bible as a static document has only been for the past 700 years. (Lutheranism not withstanding)
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 12:30:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why has the text remained 99.99% in tact(dating back 2500 years or so)?
Hello Jim,
I'm assuming you're NOT one of those "post-and-run" type of people and are actually going to read some of the replys to your post. I'm further assuming that you are referring to any one of a number of ENGLISH translations of the Bible.
Having said that, you might want to check the book "Wide As the Waters: The Story of the English Bible and the Revolution It Inspired" by Benson Bobrick. Since it sounds like you aspire to the accuracy of the Bible, then please give all thanks and deference to John Wyclif and William Tyndale, the principal translators and to King Henry the VIII and King James I for allowing the tranlations to occur.
Names not familiar to you? Well, the Word of God wasn't originally written in English now, was it. So give credit where credit is due. Mortal men writing mortal words using the best materials they had at hand. And the original KJV went through at least two dozen revisions. Revisions? They couldn't get it right the first time?
And what about the Apocrapha? It was in the original Protestant edition and then stripped out later. What? Too Catholic? Someone had a political axe to grind with the Roman Gang?
Well, that's my little piece. I couldn't possibly improve on Slater or Valiant Dancer or the others whose posts so eloquently show the workings of a true skeptic.
BTW - Some of the greatest scientific advancements in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries were made by Christian men who were SKEPTICAL of what they had been told was the truth. How about you?
Regards,
(:raig Miller
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 12:33:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Where (Slater and I) may differ in opinion is on the early evolution of the Christian religion.
Greg.
Right. You, I believe support the idea that it started some where near the end of the first century. Most scholars agree with you.
My own contention is that--what we would think of as-- Christianity wasn't created til the end of the third begining of the fourth centuries. Admittedly a more radical view. Based as much (I'm sory to say) on evidence that is suspiciously missing as on evidence that we have.
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Now Jim demanded some education. Okay, you can start with these.
MYSTERIES OF MITHRA by Franz Cumont
PERSONALITIES OF MITHRA IN ARCHAEOLOGY AND LITERATURE by A.D.H. Bivar
MYSTERIES OF MITHRA by G.R.S. Mead
TEACHINGS OF ZOROASTER AND THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE PARSI RELIGION by S.A.Kapadia
DIONYSOS —ARCHETYPAL IMAGE OF INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE by Carl Kerenyi
The above list of books, that are so bone dry that they will make the wax in your ears melt if you try to read them all, are some of the best (still in print) about the worship of the gods Mithra and Dionysos. These gods were the primary sources used when Christianity was invented.
I use the word invented because I see no indication that it evolved from an earlier religion or is what it claims to be. Rather it is made from bits and pieces of existing religions and bears all the earmarks of something created by committee. More exactly, by Roman committee.
Prof. Cumont's book, although a hundred years old, is still considered the most extensive study of the religion of Mithraism (which was, by the way, THE most popular religion with the Roman legend in the first century--from Persia to Britain) It has been continually revised since his day with all the latest findings. It has photographs of the archeological finds that I mentioned to Jim if you would like to see them.. Cumont was a devote Roman Catholic (Dutch) and was horrified to find that the majority of the Christ story was actually about Mithra. He spends a good fraction of his book denying the similarities. I must thank him for some I would have missed if he had not told me that they weren't there. His main contention is that while the stories of Mithra and Jesus are the same the Jesus one is based on a pure, true belief and the Mithra on false idol worship. He never deals with the comparison that the false Mithric tales date between twelve and seven hundred years before the identical Jesus ones.
Dancer, I've never heard anything about the biblical editing you are talking about. Are you referring to the Protestant decimating of the NT? I've never known Christians to pay that much attention to Angles. They seem to prefer Saints.
The editing I was referring to occurred in 325CE. The church dumped The Sophia of Jesus Christ, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Mary (Magdalene) , The Acts of John, The Gospel of Thomas and a score of other books from the bible that did not agree with the Emperor's decree of what should and what should not be Christian.
For many years the Christians did their best to deny the obvious copy of Mithraism. As you can imagine the Mithrans were pissed, being banned from the empire and all. The Christians lucked out with the rise of the Moslems who all but wiped the Mithrans out.
Mithrans worshiped in under ground "caves" for reasons too complicated to go into now. The main temple of Mithra in Rome can still be seen. It's in the sub-basement and makes up part of the foundation of the Vatican. (The head of the Mithric religion lived there and had a title in Persian. The title was--Pope). But the Catholics did rescue the beautiful statue of Mithra Taurotonus and it's on display in the Vatican Museum (where they also serve a very nice lunch)
And if you've ever been to Bethlehem you may have wondered why the "stable" that the Church of the Nativity is built around is actually an underground chamber. Strange place to keep a donkey. But exactly the place you would find a Magi (a Mithrain Priest) in a temple of the demi-god. Truly, it is the birth-place of Christianity.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 13:03:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dancer, I've never heard anything about the biblical editing you are talking about. Are you referring to the Protestant decimating of the NT? I've never known Christians to pay that much attention to Angles. They seem to prefer Saints.
The editing I was referring to occurred in 325CE. The church dumped The Sophia of Jesus Christ, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Mary (Magdalene) , The Acts of John, The Gospel of Thomas and a score of other books from the bible that did not agree with the Emperor's decree of what should and what should not be Christian.
The editing I was referring to occurred around 1300 (1307, I think.) It was done by the Roman Catholic Church. I'll have to look around for my references on this. A past associate of mine wrote a book about it. But the gist is that the Bible as a static document does not go back 2500 years as you also pointed out to Jim.
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Bozola
Skeptic Friend
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2001 : 14:06:03 [Permalink]
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Hawks said:
quote:
As St Augustine of Hippo tells us in his hundreds of books "original sin" is passed on to the next generation by the sexual pleasure that creates the child.
St. Augustine? I'm glad you reminded me of him. Quite the unintentional comedian for all of his pious, humorless lectures.
"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."
-St. Augustine, "The City of God"
Bozola
- Practicing skeet for the Rapture. |
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