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MissNonconformist
New Member
11 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2002 : 11:38:30
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Certainly there cant be any self respecting, educated woman that can find any religion to be anything short of ancient beliefs of a brutal society...where women are regarded as doormats..at best.
In every organized relgion that i know of and have studied....(with the exception of Unitarians) I have found absolute condemnation, MANY statements advocating the abuse of women, and repeated references of women being referred to as orphans, dependents, etc.
I personally, have had problem when asking my men friends, who happen to be religious, how they can accept this....one of them responded that he would then perhaps see religion differently, but hes not a woman so he cant imagine it.
sigh.
Religion was created by Masogonists.
In part of the Quran, it instructs men to take the step of beating their women as the third step of punishment for disobedience.
Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women."
Hadith-- Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 1:28, 301; Vol. 2:161; Vol. 7:124-126.
Genesis 3:16b: ". . . your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
"Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord" as exemplary for Christian wives (1 Peter 3:6), whom it exhorts, "be submissive to your own husbands. . . . For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves [with "chaste and respectful behavior"], being submissive to their own husbands" (1 Peter 3:1, 5).
ok...just a few examples.
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To all things clergic, I am allergic. |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2002 : 12:18:38 [Permalink]
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| The Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance has a number of essays on the position of women in the Bible at http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_bibl.htm. Hopefully, they will some day do a similar analysis of other 'holy' texts. |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 12:44:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by MissNonconformist
Religion was created by Masogonists.
No more than any other institution. Religions are the products of society and, while societies can be and have been brutally sexist and patriarchal, they are rarely misogynistic. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 14:13:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by MissNonconformist
In part of the Quran, it instructs men to take the step of beating their women as the third step of punishment for disobedience.
Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women."
Hadith-- Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 1:28, 301; Vol. 2:161; Vol. 7:124-126.
Strangely enough, Mohammed's wife was his first convert! |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 14:23:31 [Permalink]
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| If I recall my mythology Mohammed chose to spend his time hanging out in a musty old cave rather than home with his wife. Combine that with the nasty Hell-fire crack about women and you have a guy who would have been happier heading to Reno than Mecca. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 14:25:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by MissNonconformist
Certainly there cant be any self respecting, educated woman that can find any religion to be anything short of ancient beliefs of a brutal society...where women are regarded as doormats..at best.
In every organized relgion that i know of and have studied....(with the exception of Unitarians) I have found absolute condemnation, MANY statements advocating the abuse of women, and repeated references of women being referred to as orphans, dependents, etc.
I personally, have had problem when asking my men friends, who happen to be religious, how they can accept this....one of them responded that he would then perhaps see religion differently, but hes not a woman so he cant imagine it.
sigh.
Religion was created by Masogonists.
In part of the Quran, it instructs men to take the step of beating their women as the third step of punishment for disobedience.
Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women."
Hadith-- Sahih Bukhari: Vol. 1:28, 301; Vol. 2:161; Vol. 7:124-126.
Genesis 3:16b: ". . . your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
1 Corinthians 14:33-35
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
"Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord" as exemplary for Christian wives (1 Peter 3:6), whom it exhorts, "be submissive to your own husbands. . . . For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves [with "chaste and respectful behavior"], being submissive to their own husbands" (1 Peter 3:1, 5).
ok...just a few examples.
Hmmm. The societal norms of the population made it into the religious texts at the time they were first laid down. Who'da thunk it.
Seriously, these tenets are not actively persued in all but the most extreme fundamentalists any more except for those societies where the norm is still women and fourth class citizens. The religious texts is only one aspect of the religion. Then there is the dogma which surrounds the religion.
Women and men will follow a religion due to philisopical needs which are met by the religion. (Philisophical needs are different from individual to individual.)
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 15:48:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Women and men will follow a religion due to philisopical needs which are met by the religion. (Philisophical needs are different from individual to individual.)
Much of what's being referenced has nothing to do with 'philosophical needs'. The Tanach/Quran conflate theology and civil code. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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LordofEntropy
Skeptic Friend
USA
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 16:21:11 [Permalink]
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I like how in Mormonism, men are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the 3rd and highest tier of heaven, Celestial I believe it is called. But a woman must A, be married to a good Mormon man. And B, produce a certain amount of children in order to EARN a place next to her husband in heaven.
Women who don't meet these requirements can get no higher than the 1st and lowest tier of heaven.
The more I talk to the ex-Mormons I know, the creepier the Mormons seem. I would've helped drive them out into the desert en masse a hundred+ years ago myself had I been alive.
Religion's attitudes towards women only strengthens my belief that religion is a tool created by man, to control man. Those attitudes reek of man. I could not see a creator making mankind, making us nearly identical except for indoor/outdoor plumbing, some gland size changes, and then saying the female is inferior.
Of course this all makes sense to xtians and other religious zealots. Mainly cause it is old crinkly men running around in power spewing this garbage to their flock, and they all eat it up; Thinking it is the word of god, when it is just man doing what man does.
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Entropy just isn't what it used to be.
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MissNonconformist
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 18:27:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by MissNonconformist
Women and men will follow a religion due to philisopical needs which are met by the religion. (Philisophical needs are different from individual to individual.)
Yes I agree...but being selective is one of the biggest issues here with following faith in this day and age. I have heard the excuse of God expecting people to evolve with the times, but its a weak explanation of these grey areas.
How is one to pick and choose? How can men and women accept a religion based on their modern interpretation, perhaps in this, reading their own logic into it?
I see Islam, Judaism and Christianity as very strange and barbaric on many levels. It says "forgive" in the bible, it also gives instruction to put people to death for adultery, and various social "sins". A person that agrees with the concept of forgiving, might not agree with the other obviously...yet they believe a mercyful, loving god commands man to murder in his name? (ahem...that itself is contradiction in other areas of course) I dont buy that the books given are deep messages hidden in allegories. I dont believe its this big matter of interpreting, I think that is only producing vivid imaginations and the creation of religious faiths of convenience.
I just cant see how reason is being truly exercised. |
To all things clergic, I am allergic. |
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MissNonconformist
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 18:42:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofEntropy
I like how in Mormonism, men are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the 3rd and highest tier of heaven, Celestial I believe it is called. But a woman must A, be married to a good Mormon man. And B, produce a certain amount of children in order to EARN a place next to her husband in heaven.
haha, yes the Mormons...really bizarre.
Pretty hilarious to think about mysterious levels rewarding deeds of men and women in heaven...heaven itself is a stretch.
Level 3 gets caviar and lobster?
The rest get bologna and cheese?
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To all things clergic, I am allergic. |
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MissNonconformist
New Member
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 18:56:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
quote:
Originally posted by MissNonconformist
Religion was created by Masogonists.
No more than any other institution. Religions are the products of society and, while societies can be and have been brutally sexist and patriarchal, they are rarely misogynistic.
I suppose that is a matter of perspective.
I was speaking of Biblical time and even 600 years later...Islam |
To all things clergic, I am allergic. |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2002 : 22:03:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofEntropy
I like how in Mormonism, men are pretty much guaranteed a spot in the 3rd and highest tier of heaven, Celestial I believe it is called. But a woman must A, be married to a good Mormon man. And B, produce a certain amount of children in order to EARN a place next to her husband in heaven.
Women who don't meet these requirements can get no higher than the 1st and lowest tier of heaven.
The more I talk to the ex-Mormons I know, the creepier the Mormons seem. I would've helped drive them out into the desert en masse a hundred+ years ago myself had I been alive.
Religion's attitudes towards women only strengthens my belief that religion is a tool created by man, to control man. Those attitudes reek of man. I could not see a creator making mankind, making us nearly identical except for indoor/outdoor plumbing, some gland size changes, and then saying the female is inferior.
Of course this all makes sense to xtians and other religious zealots. Mainly cause it is old crinkly men running around in power spewing this garbage to their flock, and they all eat it up; Thinking it is the word of god, when it is just man doing what man does.
*Raises hand* I am an ex-Mormon myself. Abandoned all organized religion to look for my own path.
Jesus himself was skeptical of organized faith, seeing how the leaders of Judaism sold out their followers in an act of corruption. But, in almost every case of organized faith, corruption has come into the picture. Look at the Inquisition, the Al Qaeda, and others, and tell me they were not the result of a religious zealot with more charisma than sense.
I could no longer believe in the LDS doctrine, so I left.
I have found my purpose in life, and that is to help stop the religious zealots before any harm is done. And in time, I hope to teach others how to stop them as well. |
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2002 : 09:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaneda Kuonji
I have found my purpose in life, and that is to help stop the religious zealots before any harm is done. And in time, I hope to teach others how to stop them as well.
One approach might be to dispense with religious superstition altogether. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Kaneda Kuonji
Skeptic Friend
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2002 : 11:51:56 [Permalink]
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I can concede to that much, but I think everyone on this MB knows that it will not happen since so many refuse to let go of religion. It took me more than 10 years to learn-the hard way, I might add-just how rediculous staying in organized religion was. I am agnostic, and I do have a code I follow:
1) There is only one race: the human race. Skin color is little more than a cosmetic difference.
2) Women and men are equals, and are to be treated accordingly. Gender warfare is a waste of time.
3) Respect other people's beliefs as well as your elders, but do not fall into blind obedience.
4) Take every step you can reasonably take to prevent abuse of power in any form.
These are just a few of the things I live by, so I will be adding some more later. |
Rodney Dean, CI Order of the Knights of Jubal
Ivbalis.org
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| Edited by - Kaneda Kuonji on 12/07/2002 11:52:47 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2002 : 12:25:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaneda Kuonji
These are just a few of the things I live by, so I will be adding some more later.
If you must, please consider doing so in the Social Issues forum. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Xev
Skeptic Friend
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2002 : 01:07:56 [Permalink]
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It would make sense.
What is the message of Christianity, after all? "Accept your lot, submit to God".
The message of Judaism and Islam? "Submit to God"
Women, being unworthy of the presence of God, must submit to the next highest power - men. "Accept your lot".
Religion (especially the Judeo-Christian ones) serves the primary purpose of making the slaves content and satisfied by offering otherworldly hopes, and thus serving the master's purposes in creating a nation of "docile bodies" to exploit. The ideal that men and women are equal would seriously interfere with this aim.
After all, if men and women are equal, why shouldn't masters and slaves be equal? Did not the same appaling apostle who said "Wives, obey your husbants" also say "slaves, obey your masters"?
It should also be noted that the ability to tyrannize another person softens one's own powerlessness. Mark Twain pointed out hundreds of thousands of Southern men who had everything to lose from slavery opened their veins in Appotomax simply to preserve their mastery over some humans who were a little more miserable than them.
I don't claim that any of this was intentional, of course. That's the problem I have with current Feminist theory and Master/Slave morality...it tends to the idea that the dominent groups actively create values that serve their interests. It's more that these systems were most stable, and served the "master's" interests best over the years.
Obviously, any religion that hopes to survive will advocate something that elevates the present social climate (i.e female subjegation) into a virtue, nay, to a commandment of God. |
Nothing will keep us apart
we could kill them all
if our desire tore free
Our union is one, sweet, sinful Eve
--CoF, "Dark Goddess Rises II" |
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