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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 01/05/2003 : 12:10:41 [Permalink]
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Kil says:
By the way, Cardiac arrest is not a heart attack. That is your diagnoses from a magazine article and not the one the Doctors at the hospital gave.
You're right, Kil, the docs weren't there toe verify the cardiac arrest. I was going by what I saw at the seen and heard the lady describe. I saw her extreme weakness, then going into unconsiousness and turning blue, which is a sign of perhaps lots of stuff. Her testimony afterwards described a "charley horse in her heart", then "something broke loose and my heart started beating every which way" or words to that effect. That's when she began to lose consciousness. I did read up on cardiac arrest before your note. When your heart stops pumping blood, you are in arrest. Some minor heart attacks cause damage, but there is limited blood flow that continues. My dad had such an attack. Surely I was limited in my knowledge, so I cannot conclude she would have died within minutes. That is what doctors say will happen to someone in cardiac arrest and why defib machines save so many lives. Conclude what you want, but I could only conclude that a miracle, something beyond the normal, had taken place. Not once, but twice within a few days. The only factor that was visible was this woman's son and his faith in God. The Bible gives evidence of men of faith seeing their prayers answered and that it is a method Jesus prescribed for His followers, praying for the sick. It is obvious that men like Benny Hinn abuse this teaching in the Bible for their own personal gain, but that in and of itself cannot be taken as absolute evidence of the impossibilty of God's existence or His ability to do miracles. In fact, Jesus predicted such false prophets to appear in His name doing "lying signs and wonders". When Moses began his signs to the Egyptians long ago, the religious priests, Jannis and Jambres, duplicated many of the signs, but they could only go so far before they said, "this is the finger of God!" The deceitfulness of Hinn is evidence,however, of man's ability to go to depths of evil for his own selfish purposes.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 12:20:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Doomar: Your reply within this forum to my thread most likely coincided with millions of other statements in thousands of other forums accross the world. It was a coincident and as I have no way of knowing that it was a result of my statement I can not draw any conclusion from it.
Since my post contained a quote from yours and had content that was clearly in response to yours, it is a pretty safe bet (since there is direct evidence of the existence of both you and me) that my post was in response to yours.
Then perhaps it is also pretty safe to say my friend's prayer for his mother at the very moment of this heart attack, unknown to anyone in the world outside of this house, and then his prayer several days later directly before her miraculous recovery (howbeit the addendants at Mercy Hospital knew of her serious condition also) would have had some affect in the matter.
[edited for spelling]
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 12:39:43 [Permalink]
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First of all, the facts you have presented are anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence is only evidence that someone has told us a story that they may believe is true and leads to conclusions that they regard as fact. It is not evidence of a fact. It is evidence of a claim.
A claim as big as yours is requires evidence of a more substantial nature. You are free to back up your claim with evidence that can be tested. Remember, you are asking us to consider the possibility that a supernatural healing occurred. .
Dear Kil,
I appreciate your candor and openness to discuss this. I do wish this lady had gotten the medical report and cardiagrm from the hospital to keep as evidence of her condition at that moment. That was her call. I do know the other people who were present who could give their testimony of what they witnessed. If you wish to contact these people, I could probably arrange that. The mom in question passed away a year or so ago in her 70's.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 13:49:14 [Permalink]
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Doomar, your posts would be far more readable if you used the quote command consistently and correctly, and if you only quote the pertinent information.
I also recommend that you review logical fallacies, since you persist in using the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in this thread. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 14:26:20 [Permalink]
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Doomar, a true story.
When I was in the service I had a good friend and shipmate who was engaged to the most devout girl, Mary, I've ever met. Her life was centered on Christ and her kindness made her loved by almost everyone who met her. I used to go out on double dates with them and attended their wedding.
They had their second child within two weeks of my wife and I having our first. My kid is an Atheist hers was baptized when a few weeks old.
When they went out to a movie for the first time after the baby was born they came home to find the infant dead of SIDS.
Twenty years later, I was in the hospital with cancer and I received a letter from Mary telling me that she had the same type of cancer. She asked everyone she knew to pray for her.
She was confident because it was caught early, she was receiving the best medical help, and she had faith in God.
I on the other hand asked well wishers to refrain from praying when they offered. I find scuh superstition distasteful. Even to the point of chasing one Holy Roller out of my hospitable room with a string of vindictives dating from my time in the Navy.
Long story short, my daughter who was never prayed for is 30, Mary's son is dead.
I am fine, healthy as a horse.
Mary spent the last days of her life drugged out of her mind because she was in agony. Was buried in a closed casket because she was unrecognizable.
The moral from this story should be that prayer is not only useless it's actually harmful.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 14:26:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Doomar, your posts would be far more readable if you used the quote command consistently and correctly, and if you only quote the pertinent information.
MY BAD.
I also recommend that you review logical fallacies, since you persist in using the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy in this thread.
I have reviewed it, thanks.
I would direct you to this link within the same area concerning slothful induction: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/sloth.htm |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/05/2003 14:34:12 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 16:48:04 [Permalink]
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The moral from this story should be that prayer is not only useless it's actually harmful.
I have no reason to doubt your story at all, Slater. Your "moral" however would be a lapse in logic. Have you considered that your friend and son were ready to die while you and your daughter were not? Perhaps in his great mercy God has granted you time to reconsider.  Just another possibility. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 17:15:46 [Permalink]
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Of course my moral was a laspe in logic.
The prayers had nothing to do with these poor people dying. BUT just as they had nothing to do with these people dying so they had nothing to do with the woman in your story not dying.
If Jesus prayes to Yahweh that he not die but has to add the caveat that Yahweh is going to do whatever He wants to do anyway...no matter what Jesus pleads for...then we are being told by the NT that praying is absolutely useless.
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| Edited by - Slater on 01/05/2003 17:20:44 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 21:48:06 [Permalink]
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If Jesus prayes to Yahweh that he not die but has to add the caveat that Yahweh is going to do whatever He wants to do
Maybe we should think of it as Jesus submitting in love to die, knowing it was for our greater good, but realizing also how great his suffering would be in the next few hours.
[green][size=1]anyway...no matter what Jesus pleads for...then we are being told by the NT that praying is absolutely useless
I don't think that is what the disciples got out of it, as they had many marvelous answers to prayer recorded. Remember also that Jesus knew he was going to the cross long before this. Did you read the mountaintop vision Jesus had with Peter, James, and John present? I am glad you are reading the Bible. I am, too. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/05/2003 21:49:00 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 23:38:45 [Permalink]
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Maybe we should think of it as Jesus submitting in love to die,
We have no reason to consider that. The NT portrays a Jesus in such a state of hysterical cowardliness that he is actually sweating blood. He's in the garden on his knees pleading that this cup pass him by.
knowing it was for our greater good, but realizing also how great his suffering would be in the next few hours.
I've seen Marines go through much worse and get up fighting.
…as they had many marvelous answers to prayer recorded.
I do wish you would make up your mind. Prayers are answered, they aren't answered.
Remember also that Jesus knew he was going to the cross long before this.
And he knew he was a god and immortal. So you are saying that Jesus was just a big pussy?
Did you read the mountaintop vision Jesus had with Peter, James, and John present?
I liked the original Hellenistic version of the story better before they switched Dionysus for the Jesus character.
I am glad you are reading the Bible. I am, too.
You'd be better off to throw your copy in the garbage where it belongs and read some non-fiction for a change.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2003 : 12:40:47 [Permalink]
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Slater, I'm sorry you feel that way about God and the Bible.
I did fail to mention to you and others interested that I have been healed also by Christ. Once from a pilonidal cyst (http://www.pilonidal.org/storiesarchive4.htm here is a link of someone who had the same thing but wasn't healed) that was worked on by an Air Force physician that told me I would need an operation in about a year that would require two weeks of recovery (they only drained the swelling at that time, as it was extremely painful). When the pain and swelling began to reoccur as the physician predicted about 10 month later. I prayed for healing, as I had since begun to believe Jesus could do such things. The pain and swelling went away and never returned. That was over 30 years ago.
Another time, I had a horrible toothache. I was in the dental program at the Univ. of MN receiving treatment for several dental problems. Appointments were hard to get and during a couple weeks of waiting, one bottom molar was killing me with pain. It was scheduled for a root canal, but I was suffering. For over a week I had not been able to sleep. One night I asked a preacher friend (yep, the same guy who prayed for his mom) to pray for me so the pain would leave and I could sleep and eat. He did, and a few minutes later I was at supper preparing for the usual wincing from a hot or cold item and the extreme pain it brought. As I started the meal, no pain, the whole meal no pain. The throbbing was gone and never returned. After a while that tooth was removed, but I never again experience pain from it. I asked the dentists about this. They said such things do not happen. They didn't believe me, of course, as you probably won't either. All I know is I had no more pain and could eat and sleep normally even though I had a badly abscessed tooth.
I have a friend who had what you would consider a miracle happen to her. She went to a prayer service in Duluth, MN, I believe, where a lady was praying for the sick and such. The friend had a leg problem, I think. They found it to be 1+ inches shorter than the other. She had a slightly humped back that was noticeable to all who knew her and she walked slightly humped over. Anyway, upon receiving prayer, she heard cracking in her bones and felt something amazing. Suddenly she was able to breath much deeper. She didn't know what had happened at first. But upon examination, not only was her leg longer but also her humped back/spine was now normal! She walks taller and straighter now. This happened about 20 years ago. I knew her 10 years before this. She attributes it to the power of Christ. Yep, you guessed it, no before and after spinal x-rays. She was born that way and people just live with such stuff. Does she or I care if you believe it happened? Not really.
By the way, I asked my friend whose mom's heart was healed about the medical records. He said something interesting to me. He doesn't really care if any skeptic believes it happened or not. One day he will get the records. I had the necessary forms faxed to me. There was no doubt in his mind that his mom would have died that day if God had not heard his prayer. Even with absolute proof of a miracle before their eyes, people must choose to believe it was God or something else that caused it. So I think we should move on to some other subject.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 12:26:10 [Permalink]
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Doomar,
What is your opinion of all the alien abduction accounts? These are eye-witness accounts similar to yours. Do you believe them to be real also? What is your basis for accepting or rejecting their claims? |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 16:01:49 [Permalink]
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| Doomar, I'm sorry you feel that way about God and the Bible. To live in demon haunted world of magic and superstition must be an awful thing. That you own a computer and at the same time call on a shaman to chant over a toothache as though it were caused by evil spirits makes my heart go out to you. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 22:59:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Doomar, I'm sorry you feel that way about God and the Bible. To live in demon haunted world of magic and superstition must be an awful thing. That you own a computer and at the same time call on a shaman to chant over a toothache as though it were caused by evil spirits makes my heart go out to you.
But....but, I like magic and fairies and Leprechauns and the Land of Oz and the wonder of nature. Imagination. Imagination is a beautiful thing. |
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