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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
 Posted - 01/04/2003 : 16:17:48 [Permalink]
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Snake,
I have been online and did get a transcript, but they aren't making video for that particular segment available to the public. Fortunately, another member had taped it through his computer and has provided me with a copy. Appreciate the thought! |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 16:26:04 [Permalink]
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| Hey, Kil. I could have called the ambulance also. Point is, she would have been dead in perhaps 10 minutes. Don't know if you remember how this was in the 70's and nearest hospital was 45 minutes round trip at max speed (not considering loading and unloading and such). There were no "paramedics" and paddles in ambulances in those days. A better point of view might be, if she had a son with no faith in God, she would have died 30 years before her time. We both knew CPR, however, which was not yet needed. He wasn't opposed to emergency treatment, he just had enough wisdom to realize his mom would probably be dead before she got it. Remember, anyone who's heart goes into fibrillation away from medical support will most likely die. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 16:54:33 [Permalink]
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Hey, Kil and all interested. Here's some info I found online to help with understanding a heart attack situation.
http://www.heartcenteronline.com/myheartdr/common/articles.cfm?Artid=138&startpage=4#2
How is cardiac arrest treated?
When someone goes into cardiac arrest, immediate signs include unconsciousness and severely troubled breathing. Without immediate medical assistance, the person cannot survive a stopped heart and will succumb to sudden cardiac death in minutes. The brain can only remain undamaged for about four minutes from the time that oxygen deprivation to the brain begins. Although some patients do not recover even when treatment is immediately given, most sudden cardiac deaths occur before the patient arrives at the hospital or receives any emergency medical help.
NOTE: THE CASE I WAS REFERRING TO WAS A MASSIVE HEART ATTACK WHERE CARDIAC ARREST HAD JUST OCCURRED AND THE WOMAN WAS GOING INTO UNCONSIOUSNESS. BY THE WAY, THERE WAS NO 911 IN THIS AREA AT THE TIME EITHER FOR YOU YOUNGSTERS. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 17:15:57 [Permalink]
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I think a couple of things. First, I have battled shoulder problems the past few years. Most times, it feels normal, no pain. Sometimes, after I exercise or play volleyball, it will feel uncomfortable or painful. Other times, like this morning, while sitting on the couch, my shoulder will gradually start to hurt until it feels almost separated. The pain or discomfort always goes away on its own. Sometimes the pain stays away for months at at time. Because of things like this, testimonies like 'this or that pain or discomfort went away after I prayed' are singularly unimpressive.
I also wonder why God chooses to answer only ambiguous medical prayers. Someone who has lost a leg or an arm is not as deserving of a 'divine healing' than your mother and her shoulder? A paraplegic who has a severed spinal cord is not deserving of a 'divine healing'? Perhaps because such miracles might provide evidence God's existence and remove some of his precious, and incomprehensible, "free will"?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 18:46:41 [Permalink]
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"Do you believe I am able to do this," Jesus asked?
"There were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, but only Nahaman the Syrian was healed." Jesus
Perhaps if more of us tried to believe God instead of disprove His existence, there would be more healings.
I thought a skeptic was one who closely checked the facts instead of quickly discounting them.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 20:04:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar: I thought a skeptic was one who closely checked the facts instead of quickly discounting them.
The healing of your friend's mother coincided with his prayer. That healing also most likely coincided with the birth of a child somewhere in the world, and another's death. These are all coincidences. Since there is no way to tell if the prayer is the cause of the healing, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from your anecdote. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 21:31:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Perhaps if more of us tried to believe God instead of disprove His existence, there would be more healings.
Perhaps if more of us tried to believe Dionysis instead of disprove His existence, there would be more guilt-free, drunken orgies. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2003 : 22:21:45 [Permalink]
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The healing of your friend's mother coincided with his prayer. That healing also most likely coincided with the birth of a child somewhere in the world, and another's death. These are all coincidences. Since there is no way to tell if the prayer is the cause of the healing, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from your anecdote.
Your reply within this forum to my thread most likely coincided with millions of other statements in thousands of other forums accross the world. It was a coincident and as I have no way of knowing that it was a result of my statement I can not draw any conclusion from it. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 01:36:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The healing of your friend's mother coincided with his prayer. That healing also most likely coincided with the birth of a child somewhere in the world, and another's death. These are all coincidences. Since there is no way to tell if the prayer is the cause of the healing, there is no conclusion that can be drawn from your anecdote.
Your reply within this forum to my thread most likely coincided with millions of other statements in thousands of other forums accross the world. It was a coincident and as I have no way of knowing that it was a result of my statement I can not draw any conclusion from it.
Know what the funny thing is? I was praying to Loki to cause your friend's mother further harm, but Loki, being the unpredictable bastard he is, healed her instead, just to spite me! Can you believe that? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 05:35:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
I thought a skeptic was one who closely checked the facts instead of quickly discounting them.
Oh, we do, we do! Hi Doomar, and welcome to SFN.
Unfortunatly, ancedotal evidence is no evidence at all. If I were to tell you that there's a 4 foot Water Moccasin asleep in my living room, would you buy it without seeing the snake? Of course not. I might be that crazy, but I doubt if you're that stupid.
And thus it is with religions. All speak of great wonders but produce little tangable but a vast number of scoundrels such as Hinn. The sad part about it is that people keep coming back to them, no matter how outrageously they'd been treated.
(Hang on, here's another Ancedote) I once had a neighbor who finmly believed that God instructed Jimmy Swaggert to consort with those hookers. What conclusion am I to draw from this? (A): That God loves hookers, giving them a shot at Jimmy's wallet? (B): That God loves Swaggert, getting him laid without catching something embarrassing, or worse? Or (C): that my former neighbor was an idiot?
I've yet to see any evidence backing up A & B, but plenty for C.
Now, I've got to go wake up the Moccasin. His breakfast, a nice, plump rat (Mmmm, rat. Yummy!), is ready.
f
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 10:13:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doomar: Your reply within this forum to my thread most likely coincided with millions of other statements in thousands of other forums accross the world. It was a coincident and as I have no way of knowing that it was a result of my statement I can not draw any conclusion from it.
There are any number of causes of "spontaneous" remission of a heart attack. God could be one of those, but this is generally discounted since no sane person has met this creature. There are other, biological reasons that have been seen to work. Thus (warning: Occam application) we can say it is biological, since the supernatural reason would require us to invent an entity that may not even exist.
Since my post contained a quote from yours and had content that was clearly in response to yours, it is a pretty safe bet (since there is direct evidence of the existence of both you and me) that my post was in response to yours.
[edited for spelling] |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 01/05/2003 10:14:30 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 10:18:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doormar:
Hey, Kil. I could have called the ambulance also. Point is, she would have been dead in perhaps 10 minutes. Don't know if you remember how this was in the 70's and nearest hospital was 45 minutes round trip at max speed (not considering loading and unloading and such). There were no "paramedics" and paddles in ambulances in those days. A better point of view might be, if she had a son with no faith in God, she would have died 30 years before her time. We both knew CPR, however, which was not yet needed. He wasn't opposed to emergency treatment, he just had enough wisdom to realize his mom would probably be dead before she got it. Remember, anyone who's heart goes into fibrillation away from medical support will most likely die.
Lets run through this again, shall we? You say she would have been dead in 10 minutes if her son or you had called an ambulance. You also say that the ambulance would not have arrived for at least 20 minutes. So, couldn't her son, with or without your help, pray for her and call and ambulance? Couldn't he have prayed for her in the back of the ambulance? (Does god ignore moving targets?) Also, I take it her son was an MD of some sort since he instantly diagnosed the graveness of his mothers condition and knew that there just wasn't time for, well, a doctor.
Stranger yet, even though his mother continued to be sick, and after an medical emergency, you both waited days to take her to a doctor. Of course, Im forgetting that her son had already diagnosed the seriousness of her condition and concluded that medical help was unnecessary. Makes me wonder why he ever took her. Was it to confirm what he and you already knew?
There is just no way around it. You're friend, with your help, acted irresponsibly. With all of your faith, did it never once occur to you that your god might have been granting her extra time so that she could get the medical care she might have needed? Did god talk to her son and tell her to hold up on calling? Does god not like doctors?
quote:
Doormar:
The article said 90 some percent (maybe 99, I don't remember)die if this happens to them outside of a hospital without emergency equipment.
You admit to a statistical possibility that she would have lived anyway. The range you posted is one in ten to one in a hundred live. (I'm glad you saw fit to do your homework on this one. We skeptics do so appreciate this kind of diligence with regard to statistical evidence.) Do you know that all of those who survived were prayed for? What is the statistic on that?
I bet that if Benny Hinn ever gets a massive pain in his chest and can't breath he, or those around him, will make sure he gets medical help as soon as possible, even as they prey. Or, perhaps if those around him have the same faith that you and your friend have, Hinn will get what he deserves...
Again, I'm happy she survived whatever it was that would have almost surly killed her. But once again I need to point out that if she had died, and even if you had excepted that as "Gods will," I would have favored the prosecution of you two for criminal negligence. You got lucky.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 10:33:03 [Permalink]
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Anecdotal: sketchy, untrustworthy, unreliable, untrustworthy, undependable, subjective.
Had there been no evidence of a heart attack happening to my friend's mother, I would agree that it was only a subjective point of view. However, cardiograms from Mercy Hospital revealed massive heart damage. This was not subjective. They wanted her to stay. It was her choice not to stay. Both of this lady's parents were killed by inept medical treatment of a lousy doctor. So, perhaps she had reason to question the hospitals ability to help her. I don't know what she was thinking. Besides, when you need rest to recover, a hospital is the worst place to be. The fact that this healing occurred as the result of a prayer meeting, you may see as a subjective argument. However, the fact that she returned to work in two weeks without further heart problems was evidence of something amazing happening to her. She had a public water works job that was not sedentary. Normal recovery takes months. So if you think all of these facts are simply anecdotal, you need to ask yourself if you're committed to seeking for truth or simply comfortable in condemning all miraculous events as shenanigans of Charlatans like Benny Hinn. Her son, by the way, is a preacher today who condemns the ministry of Benny Hinn.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 10:40:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Doormar:
I later read a magazine article that described what happened to her as fibrilation of the heart...loss of regular sinus rythem. That's when they get the paddles out boys and girls and zap you!
quote:
A few days later, she went to the hospital for an exam, and they did a cardiogram. After that, they would not let her hardly move and said she'd had the signs of a massive heart attack and she would have to stay in the hospital.
By the way, Cardiac arrest is not a heart attack. That is your diagnoses from a magazine article and not the one the Doctors at the hospital gave.
http://www.medtronic.com
Note: This address was so long that I only included the home page. Use their search and go to cardiac arrest. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2003 : 11:52:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
So if you think all of these facts are simply anecdotal, you need to ask yourself if you're committed to seeking for truth or simply comfortable in condemning all miraculous events as shenanigans of Charlatans like Benny Hinn.
First of all, the facts you have presented are anecdotal. Anecdotal evidence is only evidence that someone has told us a story that they may believe is true and leads to conclusions that they regard as fact. It is not evidence of a fact. It is evidence of a claim.
A claim as big as yours is requires evidence of a more substantial nature. You are free to back up your claim with evidence that can be tested. Remember, you are asking us to consider the possibility that a supernatural healing occurred. Tell me this. How are we to seek the truth about this sort of claim without asking for evidence that not only supports your claim but also can't be explained in other ways? You have to leave us room for no doubt.
Our standards for evidence are high. That does not mean that we don't seek the truth. It means that evidence must support a claim before we can regard it as valid.
I don't reject claims out of hand. I do reject claims that lack support. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.
Bring on the evidence that support your claim. Remember that the evidence must be testable and falsifiable. Good luck.
By the way, I don't know if you noticed but I did not attack you for praying. I attacked you for not seeking medical help which you could have done. That's because there are mountains of evidence to support the advisability in seeking medical treatment in medical emergencies. So far, support for healings of a supernatural kind are thin, at best...
You might understand us better if you read these:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/showfaq.asp?fldAuto=15
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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