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Lars_H
SFN Regular
Germany
630 Posts |
 Posted - 12/30/2002 : 23:32:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Slater has a good point. What's to stop a group from forming with the sole intent of not allowing atheists, the school voucher program will really suck if atheists are not admitted to what will become the good schools. There is a point where government needs to step in and make sure the little guy has access. Yes, no one likes being told what they have to do. Don't forget that some people don't like being told what they can't do based on their beliefs.
What kind of America or world do you want to live in anyway?
@tomic
Well I would like to live in a world, where the government can't force me to admit members into my private club and where nobody can tell me who have to do busisness with.
The problem is that many of the examples above are somewhere between public and private. Where are you supposed to draw the line if you feel like makeing any distinction at all? |
To any insufficiently advanced person technolgy becomes indistinguishable from magic. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2002 : 23:44:14 [Permalink]
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In the south the segregration system was everywhere from government to the private sector. If every business refuses to do business or let one group use its services you have a problem. I can see both sides of this. In today's world where a club not accepting a group is a rarity it's not so bad perhaps but taken to its extreme it makes life a living hell for the ones left out. There has to be a point where things are bad enough that access must be granted.
Perhaps there should be limits of some kind on both sides of this. It's not a simple issue but discriminating is wrong. There are few alternatives to the Scouts and it's sad that such a small declaration can make the difference between admission and expulsion.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 00:33:39 [Permalink]
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How is the BSA a "private" club?
They recruit in public schools during the school day yet they discriminate against certain groups of school children.
They accept government money yet they exclude the children of certain groups of tax payers.
They advertise themselves as promoting moral values while institutionalizing intolerance.
You can't claim to be a "private club" while at the same time using public funds and services. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 06:16:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Hmmmm, slater is full of good points today. Keep him away from the balloon animals!!!
@tomic
Hmm. Indeed he is. Nice, sharp ones, too.
Again, what I know about the Scouts would fit in a hollow tooth, although I've done many wildlife presentations at Scout Camps. It seems to me that any organization that accepts support from the public should be open to the public; all of the public. The key word here is, "should." There's lots of things that 'should be,' but are not.
Further, I see no change for the better on the horizon, even with a change of administration. The BSA is too firmly entrenched. I think that if this kid's suit makes it to the SC, it might not even get heard.
 For us old-time bikers, 'BSA' stands for: "Bastard Stopped Again!"
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 07:06:57 [Permalink]
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Slater, could you, please, direct me to some sort of official vallidation of this claim.quote:
A "private outfit' that recruits in public schools. That gets a significant percentage of it's funding from the federal government.
It's not that I don't believe you, because I do. I have no reason not to trust your word, but this stuff reaaly chaps my ass. If they accept federal funds, they have no right to limit membership, especially when that organization is all about our children!
Thanks....
Edited because my hands are too damned big for keyboards. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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| Edited by - Tim on 12/31/2002 07:10:46 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 08:01:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
Slater, could you, please, direct me to some sort of official vallidation of this claim.quote:
A "private outfit' that recruits in public schools. That gets a significant percentage of it's funding from the federal government.
It's not that I don't believe you, because I do. I have no reason not to trust your word, but this stuff reaaly chaps my ass. If they accept federal funds, they have no right to limit membership, especially when that organization is all about our children!
Thanks....
Edited because my hands are too damned big for keyboards.
Some councils recieve government grants and are occasionally sponsors of individual troops. They are a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. However, it is improper for governmental agencies to provide direct funding to scouting based on the discriminatory record of BSA.
http://www.nonbeliever.org/index.bsa_government.html
There are several subsections including Form 990 filings for government grant holders that are BSA councils and Troops who are sponsored by governmental agencies.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 08:16:04 [Permalink]
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| I believe GW Bush's faith-based charity initiative contains a provision to allow the authorized churches to continue discriminating in hiring practices and even require some degree of sectarian worship for those being assisted. If that part of the bill passes (although I, perhaps overly optimistically, believe it will not), it's not much of a judicial leap to allow the BSA similar leeway. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 12:33:16 [Permalink]
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Thanks for the link, val. there's a lot of information there that I want to read. That will take me awhile. I'm kinda slow.
And, PhD, I was once as optimistic as you are, but this administration seems to have a knack for getting this crap passed. I guess if you can appeal to our collective fear of terrorism, and keep us at war, he can continue to get this stuff passed. The 1st Ammendment seems to be the biggest enemy of this administration. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 13:32:19 [Permalink]
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Webster's New World Dictionary:
reverent - feeling, showing, or characterized by reverence.
reverence - 1. a feeling or attitude of deep respect, love, and awe, as for something sacred; veneration. 2. gesture of respect; obeisance. 3. the state of being revered
By the above definition, I'd say one could be both atheist AND reverent. Been both for at least 35 years, course reverence without the religious conotations.
Below is a recent update.
Brave kid.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/102003_atheistscout30.shtml
(lengthy article deleted)
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"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
| Edited by - Randy on 01/01/2003 07:23:01 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 21:53:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
It's not a simple issue but discriminating is wrong. There are few alternatives to the Scouts and it's sad that such a small declaration can make the difference between admission and expulsion.
@tomic
Discrimination is not wrong.
And there are alternatives to the scouts, and if there weren't, this would be a good reason to start more. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2002 : 22:10:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Slater has a good point. What's to stop a group from forming with the sole intent of not allowing atheists, the school voucher program will really suck if atheists are not admitted to what will become the good schools.
Atheists (by nature) are an independant sort, wouldn't you agree? Side point; perhaps that's why they don't get enough in one place to make any headway in government.
But from the statistics I've heard they along with a few other groups, gays and nonsmokers come to mind, have a higher intelligence level, better educated and therefore are more economicly stable, so what's to stop them from forming their own schools? And according to some conservitive radio talk show hosts I've listened to, most colleges are liberal minded and try to keep conservitive thinkers out. So I don't know what you are worried about.
quote:
What kind of America or world do you want to live in anyway?
@tomic
One where I have the choice to do what I want too. If someone wants me out, it goes both ways. I might want them out of my group too. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 05:40:46 [Permalink]
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Lambert reads like he's a very intellegent and determined kid. I wonder where he'll be a decade or so down the road....
f |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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