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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
 Posted - 01/01/2003 : 08:03:03 [Permalink]
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What initially provoked him to come forward or out of the closet, according to one article, was comments made at a scout adult leadership meeting he was attending. Lambert at that time was over 18 so was no longer a scout, but was interested in continuing with scouts as a adult volunteer.
As I recall the article, the adult speaker made comments about those 'bad guy' atheists, saying they were a sorry lot and could not be trusted. With that said, Lampert verbally confronted the speaker saying those comments were lies with adding that he himself was atheist.
Word got back to the higher ups and Lambert was ousted.
The bigoted fundie bastards.
His troop wants him back with full honors. I had hoped to hear more from them in the media about this. You know, the more this kid is on the air, the better; he's quite the model of courage, whereas this scout policy comes out smelling like the skunk that it is.
In my book, Lambert gets A+ with his Citizenship merit badge, BSA get a big fat F. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 10:57:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Randy:
His troop wants him back with full honors.
On our old site, I wrote a little essay condemning the boyscouts anti atheist and anti gay policies while having access to public funds and facilities. I had a several letter debate with a guy who's position was that as a private organization the boyscouts had a right to allow or not allow anyone they chose. Plus, he asked me what was wrong with an organization that promotes the values he believes in.
I told him I thought the scouts policy was wrong headed and pressed him for what values he was talking about. And, I reiterated my position on their use of public funds and facilities.
He asked me, just because I didn't agree on what values we should be teaching our children, was I labeling him a bigot?
Yup. I was. But then told him he could have whatever values he wants as long as the scouts agree to stop using public funds and facilities.... Etc....
Then, my son came to me and asked if he could be a boyscout! Oy!
It turned out that the troop he wanted to join, Troop 2 in Santa Monica did not give a rats ass about whether my son was agnostic or atheist. In a talk I had with officials of this troop I was told that they are a powerful and very successful troop and National tends to leave them alone. They openly disagree with the policy regarding atheists and gays, and, since they are such a high profile troop, they were essentially challenging the organizations position by disregarding it.
I told them that I had problems with the organizations policy, and therefor had a problem with any boyscout troop that shared any association/money with national. They pointed out that these sort of things will not change without decent from within.
I let my son join that troop.
I had to laugh when they were teaching him the part of the oath that has to do with reverence. An assistant scoutmaster, there were several, told him that meant he had to be true to whatever he believed, whether he was a Christian, a Jew, a Moslem or an Atheist.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 14:38:39 [Permalink]
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Awesome, Kil. No doubt there are pockets of people, troops, councils that are more accepting to all, like I think they should be. As the bumpersticker says, Hate is not a family virtue.
When push comes to shove, I think BSA blew it, no pun intended, with the gay and atheist issue quite some time ago. Girl Scouts has a policy of don't ask and don't tell.
A year or two ago, the BSA Boston 'Minuteman' Council broke rank so to speak, with the national group with allowing gays in; not sure about atheists, but perhaps.
I've helped my nephews troop over the years. The troop's religious card couldn't be much more minimized than it is. A campout Sunday morning service, if you can call it that, might go 5 minutes. I get more than that when visiting family. I know for a fact there -are- agnostics/atheists involved with scouts.
Like Lambert said, it's a matter of time for BSA to change. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 19:34:55 [Permalink]
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Until about a year ago, I never really knew that I was an athiest, I just thought that I had no religion. For eleven years in scouting, I mumbled the prayers, I faked the essays for badges. "just go along with it" I thought. then I discovered the skeptic community, where I learned that I wasn't an oddball for not believing. I still stand by my morals, that are to let people believe anything they want, and not to tell them that they are stupid for believing.(so much that I even defended a Jehova's Witness from an attack by other classmates).
Don't take scouting for just what the BSA says. Scouting is widespread all around the world, where every country's council dictates its policies. Although scouting was created as a sort of religious affiliated thing, that is because it was made in 19th century England.
Maybe the BSA should read the founder's books. In those he encourages peaceful co-existance between races and religions. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2003 : 19:55:53 [Permalink]
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The Scouts are one of the few groups that agree with we Atheists when we say that Atheism isn't a religion. They are proud of the fact that they will take any boy who believes any cockamamey thing.
They just draw the line with us...on moral grounds. You may let anyone believe what they want, but the Boy Scouts doesn't. They say that you can't believe what you believe. And ONLY your beliefs. If you thought that there was a god in the sky who was blue, had four hands, the head of an elephant with one tusk and rides on a rat (there is such a god, Ganesha, worshiped by many Scouts, that's not a joke) that that's okay with them.
But not you, you rely on reason so that makes you a terrible person, not fit to be a Scout. You have fake it if you want to stay in. |
| Edited by - Slater on 01/01/2003 20:04:10 |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 02:22:32 [Permalink]
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It appears we have similiar problems on this side of the pond
The Scout Promise is:
On My Honour, I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God and to the Queen,
To help other people
And to keep the Scout Law
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/6to25/scout/intro.htm
See also:http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/6to25/scout/programme/index.htm
too many instances of words like faith and belief for my tastes!
Incidentally, how on earth can the foisting of a god on a young and impressionable mind be considered "personal development".
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 02:45:18 [Permalink]
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And then I found this:
"Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position."
This appears to contravene their Equal Opportunities Policy
..no person volunteering their services should receive less favourable treatment on the basis of, nor suffer disadvantage by reason of:
class;
ethnic origin, nationality (or statelessness) or race;
gender;
marital or sexual status;
mental or physical ability;
political or religious belief.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/por/2002/2_2.htm#part_1
So if any of you guys wanna instil an unhealthy level of bigotry into yer kids...Send 'em to scouts.
(edited to include hyperlink)
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"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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| Edited by - welshdean on 01/02/2003 02:48:52 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 02:51:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by welshdean
Incidentally, how on earth can the foisting of a god on a young and impressionable mind be considered "personal development".
Now that you mentioned it, I do recall reciting that oath (country for Queen, though). I guess I never paid attention to the words or meaning.
So perhaps we (adults) are putting too much into worrying about how those young minds are being lead.
I don't think just one oath is going to sway the outcome of what a young person believes. It's the whole package. Their family, who decides where they go to school, influences who their friends will be (I'm talking at 5, 6, 7 years old), what expierences they have, etc. As Hitller said, 'give me a child until he's 7'.....
So if a child joins the scouts and the parents also believe in what the scouts believe THEN the child will be influenced. If a child joins the scouts for the fun and companionship of his peers but isn't encouraged to be devoted to the organization then there's not the problem of faith.
Like maybe when someone joins the military for the benifits but might not have the security of the country at the for front of his priorities. People do all sorts of things for various reasons, a means to an end, but not for the main intent. |
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Kilted_Warrior
Skeptic Friend
Canada
118 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 09:40:26 [Permalink]
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Hey welshdean, thats the law in the whole of the commonwealth! (it ain't just your side whose got it bad.) |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 10:23:00 [Permalink]
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Snake, I don't think you quite understand what the problem is here.
The kid in the OP was a Scout. He was a damned good Scout. He stuck with it, he rose through the ranks, he enjoyed it. The religious parts to being a Scout are so minimal as to be almost non-existent. They are hardly more than any child is exposed to in the course of everyday life.
As soon as the BSA learned that this kid was not a theist he was kicked out even though he was a fine Scout.
My kids wanted to join the Scouts. I wanted them to join the Scouts. They were good clean kids, good grades, no trouble at school. My wife and I were model citizens, I was even a decorated combat veteran. BUT as soon as I filled in the application marking "no religion" it was all over for them.
This is religious discrimination, there is no other term for it. It is not like if somebody joined the service only for the benefits (HA! What benefits?) It is like someone enlisted, served with honor, became a Master Sargent with a chest full of medals and then one day said "Well you know, I'm Jewish" and was court marshaled and dishonorably discharged for the crime of being a Jew.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 12:34:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Snake, I don't think you quite understand what the problem is here.
The kid in the OP was a Scout. He was a damned good Scout. He stuck with it, he rose through the ranks, he enjoyed it. The religious parts to being a Scout are so minimal as to be almost non-existent. They are hardly more than any child is exposed to in the course of everyday life.
As soon as the BSA learned that this kid was not a theist he was kicked out even though he was a fine Scout.
My kids wanted to join the Scouts. I wanted them to join the Scouts. They were good clean kids, good grades, no trouble at school. My wife and I were model citizens, I was even a decorated combat veteran. BUT as soon as I filled in the application marking "no religion" it was all over for them.
This is religious discrimination, there is no other term for it. It is not like if somebody joined the service only for the benefits (HA! What benefits?) It is like someone enlisted, served with honor, became a Master Sargent with a chest full of medals and then one day said "Well you know, I'm Jewish" and was court marshaled and dishonorably discharged for the crime of being a Jew.
Slater,
It was because of this discrimination that a group was formed called Scouting for All. It is petitioning the BSA as former and current Scouts to drop the exclusionary rules of the last 40 years. But as an association, they cannot be forced to change. I have started telling people who are stumping for scouting donations that I don't support hate groups.
The other organization was the Spiral Scouts, but they are just starting off and don't have the widespread infrastructure that BSA does. It still has religious overtones, but does not require a religion to be a member.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 13:13:30 [Permalink]
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But as an association, they cannot be forced to change.
When I first showed up in this country I heard the same thing about blacks. You can't force people to hire them. You can't force restaurants to serve them. You can't force white children to attend school with them. Laws not only allowed discrimination they mandated it.
We've come a long way since then.
We only have one group left that it is considered proper to still discriminate against.
Atheists.
Atheist Scouts(ing for All) has the same conotations as "Colored drinking fountains."
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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TEDPOX
New Member
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 13:35:58 [Permalink]
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This topic really catches my eyes and ears.
So what you're all saying is the BS is a club/organization that is partially funded by the government and it's taxpayers, recruits in public schools, actually asks you your religious preference in the application, discriminates and promotes hatred against minorities such as homosexuals and atheists, age discrimination after age 18 and it's all LEGAL?!?!?!?!
If I were kicked out of an organization such as that I would wear it like a badge with pride. Why would this 19 year old man (I don't know his name) even WANT to be admitted back into the Scouts as a leader unless he was going to use his power to change their bigoted policies and I don't think those are his intentions? Regardless of how much I loved something, when I see it show it's true colors to me I then realize the things I had faith in were nothing but lies and I don't have faith in many things.
To me the Scouts have shown this man that he is unworthy to be one of them. They accepted him for years then slapped him across the face, stomped on his heart and spit in his eye. Why would he want to be reinstated regardless of his love for the organization? It was all just a lie and only now do the true colors of the Scouts show.
And this is a children's organization?
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I've had about enough of me. |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 17:10:43 [Permalink]
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Why would he want to be reinstated....
Because he is a decent human being and deserves to be treated as such.
The same reason Rosa Parks wanted to sit in the front of the bus when the bus company showed it's true colors instead of just taking her bicycle. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2003 : 22:12:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Why would he want to be reinstated....
Because he is a decent human being and deserves to be treated as such.
The same reason Rosa Parks wanted to sit in the front of the bus when the bus company showed it's true colors instead of just taking her bicycle.
Wasn't the Parks case a ploy? Just like so many of the test cases that the ACLU takes on. Just like when they talked Scoops into 'standing up to' the state of Tennesse.
As for what I do or do not understand of what this folder is about, in my previous post I was only commenting on someones specific words. I think if fit into the way the conversation was going at the time. Just as your comment expanded on the topic as well. |
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