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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 01/07/2003 : 19:27:33 [Permalink]
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I've read the book and it's garbage. The more I studied the more ridiculous it showed itself to be. The more obvious that it was a poorly written work of fiction.
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 19:35:17 [Permalink]
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Tim said:
However, I would like to ask how you can reconcile Matthew's claim in Matthew 27:9? I have yet to find this prophesy in the book of Jeremiah, or anywhere else in the OT. I would like to know it's source.
Hey, Tim, thanks for the notes. I cannot find it either. Perhaps it is missing from the text we have today. Matthew obviously had it in his day and it must of been readily available to the Jews, else he would not have put it in his account. I think there is another such text, but I can't remember where. In Paul's writing, I believe.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 19:38:17 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by jmcginn
I have to add to the Micah so called prophesy, if it is a prophesy it is either not of Jesus or is blatantly false:
Micah 5:6
And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Let's look at the whole passage:
When the Assyrian comes into our land,
And when he treads in our palaces,
Then we will raise against him
Seven shepherds and eight princely men.
6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria,
And the land of Nimrod at its entrances;
Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian,
When he comes into our land
And when he treads within our borders.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 19:42:34 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by jmcginn
I have to add to the Micah so called prophesy, if it is a prophesy it is either not of Jesus or is blatantly false:
Micah 5:6
And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Let's look at the whole passage:
When the Assyrian comes into our land,
And when he treads in our palaces,
Then we will raise against him
Seven shepherds and eight princely men.6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria,
And the land of Nimrod at its entrances;
Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian,
When he comes into our land
And when he treads within our borders.
I'm not an expert, but it seems clear these 7 shepherds and 8 princely men do the killing. God(He)uses men to fulfil his plans most of the time.
I think the prophecy concerning the Christ ended before this verse.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 19:50:02 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Dr Shari
If you wait long enough you will find something that "fullfills" everyone of the Bibles prophacies, plus thoughs of Nostradamus and every other fool who thinks he knows the future. Bible prophacies were suppossed to take plce sometime in the near future from when they were written not millennias later.
Hundreds of Bible prophecies have already come to pass with complete accuracy. I know of no other book that can claim this. The odds of a single prophecy coming true by chance is simply astronomical. With a little research, you can find scholars confirmation. If you fail to look, you'll just stay in the dark. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 20:05:52 [Permalink]
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Hundreds of Bible prophecies have already come to pass with complete accuracy. I know of no other book that can claim this
Jean Dixon, Miss Cleo, National Enquirer all made that claim. It's a common claim for con men to make.
If you come in contact with anyone who trys to sell you the Bible on the grounds that it is good at fortune telling then check to see if you still have your wallet. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2003 : 20:43:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Hundreds of Bible prophecies have already come to pass with complete accuracy. I know of no other book that can claim this. The odds of a single prophecy coming true by chance is simply astronomical. With a little research, you can find scholars confirmation. If you fail to look, you'll just stay in the dark.
Nostradamus lived less than 500 years ago, his quatrains have been preserved in their original language, translated directly to English and there is still so much imprecision in the translated (and original) verses as to render the "prophesies" nearly meaningless. And yet, here you are using the phrase "complete accuracy" in reference to a 2000+ year old series of texts that has been translated upwards of three times. Your precious "scholars" can't even agree whether Elohim refers to one god or many; they can't agree whether Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. Accuracy? Surely you jest.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 04:44:17 [Permalink]
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As I noted at the beginning of this thread: "Micah 5:2 refers to a military leader emerging from the family of Ephrathah of the House of Lekhem (beit-lekhem)." The reference to Bethlehem is a reference to a clan, not a place.
Furthermore, if I fabricate (or accrete) a story, and make its hero reflect (my misinterpretation of) sections of the Tanach, that is marketing, not prophesy fulfillment.
Next. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2003 : 08:14:53 [Permalink]
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Doomar,
Who cares who is doing the killing, it is either 1) not about Jesus, or 2) is false.
Notice the timing? He the one being prophesied about is supposed to liberate them from the Assyrians.
A quick review of history will show this never happened.
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/ASSYRIA.HTM
The Assyrian empire collapsed in 612BC as they were conquered by the Babylonians not the Israelites.
Your convenient decision of when to start and end a prophecy borders on ludicrous and follows the typical ploy of apologists.
I hate to do this, but your distortion of the text requires I post the verses so it can be seen in context:
Micah
5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
5:3
Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4
And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5:5
And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
Points:
1. Bethlehem Ephratah is amongst thousands of its kind of Judah. There are not now thousands of towns nor were there then thousands of towns in Judah, so either this refers to a clan or a people.
2. This one coming from Bethlehem Ephratah is to be ruler in Israel.
3. Micah 5:4 is still clearly talking about him.
4. Micah 5:5 is still clearly talking about him and directly mentions him with association of the invading Assyrians.
5. Micah 5:6 simply continues and basically elaborates on 5:5.
Anything to defend a supposed prophecy seems to be the norm.
Edited to add this:
If Micah 5:3 - 5:5 is not talking about him then who in the hell is it talking about. No one else is identified and a typical rule is the pronoun refers to the last identified noun. |
| Edited by - jmcginn on 01/08/2003 08:17:31 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 16:11:41 [Permalink]
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By the way...the Skeptic source that I use is called The King James Version of the Bible.
Quote mining isn't something Skeptics are prone to do as we are always checking up on each other. It is taking a portion of someones quote and presenting it as though it contradicted what the person actually said. The quotes from the Jesus character are not mined...they are Jesus making a false prophesy and confirming it, not once but twice. No manipulation of any sort was used...the guy just lied. |
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I learned something ... I learned that Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Halloween. I guess they don't like strangers going up to their door and annoying them.
-Bruce Clark
There's No Toilet Paper...on the Road Less Traveled |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2003 : 23:02:44 [Permalink]
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Jmcginn:our convenient decision of when to start and end a prophecy borders on ludicrous and follows the typical ploy of
apologists.
I hate to do this, but your distortion of the text requires I post the verses so it can be seen in context:
Micah
5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come
forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. What you fail to realise is that the Jews before Christ recognized this as a Messianiac prophecy |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 03:41:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
darwin alogos: ... the Jews before Christ recognized this as a Messianiac [sic] prophecy
I think you misunderstand, darwin alogos. The Jewish people have not yet gotten their messiah. This "prophecy" has not come true (is there some sort of statute of limitations on these things?), nor is it likely to do so. You seem to think you are raising a profound point here; if you are, I must be missing it. You are not pointing out anything that has not been said already. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 04:59:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
a Messianiac prophecy
Oy Veh! |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 07:54:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Jmcginn:our convenient decision of when to start and end a prophecy borders on ludicrous and follows the typical ploy of
apologists.
I hate to do this, but your distortion of the text requires I post the verses so it can be seen in context:
Micah
5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come
forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. What you fail to realise is that the Jews before Christ recognized this as a Messianiac prophecy
Oh I realize it is a prophecy of a Messiah, but either as I said, 1) it is not of Jesus, or 2) it is erroneous. Either way the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled as was claimed and never will be since the Assyrian kingdom is long gone. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2003 : 20:47:27 [Permalink]
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The Jews did't see the whole chapter as referring to the Messiah but only these verses:Micah 2.13 (see Gen 18.4,5; Midr on Prov 6)
Micah 5.2 (targ; Pirqe d. R. Eliez c.3; et.al.)
Micah 5.3 (talmud--Yoma 10a; Sanh 98b) .Therefore, tour allusions to the Assyrian kingdom . are irrelevant.http://www.israelshope.com/messiah.html (edited for http:) |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/10/2003 23:12:43 |
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