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Originally posted by darwin alogos

waltfristoe:

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That's all well and good, DA, but do you agree that the criteria are valid?

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Not a problem

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The Tyre prophecies did indeed come to pass.

In the 26th chapter of Ezekiel (592-570 BC) seven things are predicted to happen to the city of Tyre:



1) Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:8).

2) Many nations against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3).

3) Make her a bare rock; flat like the top of a rock (Ezekiel 26:4).

4) Fishermen will spread their nets over the site (Ezekiel 26:5).

5) Throw the debris into the water (Ezekiel 26:12).

6) Never be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26:14).

7) Never be found again (Ezekiel 26:21) (2/285)



Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to mainland Tyre three years after the prophecy and after a 13 year siege (585-573 BC) Tyre made terms and acknowledged Babylonian authority over them (4 xxii.452) When Nebuchadnezzar broke the gates down, he found the city almost empty. The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about 1/2 miles off the coast and fortified a city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573 BC, as predicted. The city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years. (2/286)



Alexander the Great, in his war on Persia, marching southward called on each city to open their gates to him, as part of his plan to deny the use to the Persian fleet. Tyre refused to do so, and Alexander laid siege to the city. Possessing no fleet, he demolished old Tyre, on the mainland, and with the debris built a causeway 200 feet wide across the straits separating the old and new towns, erecting towers and war engines at the farther end. (4/xxii. 452) Tyre continually raided the causeway with fire-ships greatly retarding progress, until Alexander pressured conquered subjects to make ships for his operation. After attaining a superior naval force, Alexander finished the causeway, battered the walls of Tyre down killed eight thousand of the inhabitants and sold thirty thousand into slavery. (5/153)



A history book by a secular historian reads, "Alexander the Great ... reduced Tyre to ruins... The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock --- a place where fishermen now spread their nets to dry." (5/55)



Another historian, John C. Beck, says, "The history of Tyre does not stop with after the conquest of Alexander. Men continue to rebuild her and armies continue to besiege her walls, until finally after sixteen hundred years, she falls never to be rebuilt again." (6/41)



All the prophecies of Ezekiel about Tyre have come true: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre; Many nations were against Tyre; Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site; (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre) the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring are located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried. All seven of the predictions came true in the minutest detail.

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Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:8).

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The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about ½ miles off the coast and fortified a city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573 BC, as predicted. The city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years.

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Many nations against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3).

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Make her a bare rock; flat like the top of a rock (Ezekiel 26:4).
Fishermen will spread their nets over the site (Ezekiel 26:5).
Never be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26:14).
Never be found again (Ezekiel 26:21) (2/285)”

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This statement seems to want to lower the expectations of the writer. A careful reading of the text shows that Ezekiel does
predict the demise of the mainland suburbs. Then, Ezekiel goes on to show that Nebuchadnezzar breaches the walls of Tyre.
Notice that nowhere does Ezekiel mention any other kings or generals invading Tyre since the introduction of the “king of
kings” until the breach of the walls, (and on to the end of this supposed prophecy). In the verses listed below,
Nebuchadnezzar is the only singular person referred to, and Tyre is the only individual city referred to. There is no reason to
assume that the pronoun “he” suddenly begins to refer to anyone other than Nebuchadnezzar, namely Alexander the Great.
Next, there is no reason to assume that the pronouns “thee” and “thy” refer to anything other than the city of Tyre, since
the destruction of the “daughters” has already occurred.

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Nebuchadnezzar is not the "many nations" referenced in verse 3. Instead, he is the first of the "many nations" referenced in verse 3.

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only the mainland of Tyre is addressed - never the island

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As for the claim that Ezekiel 29:17 is an admission from Ezekiel that his prophecy about Tyre failed, because Nebuchadnezzar did not get any loot from Tyre, take a look again at verses 7-11.

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It was the Phoenician Tyre that Ezekiel wa

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The crux of the argument in both of these web pages seems to be a very liberal use of the pronoun ‘they'. Where in this
entire chapter is this pronoun antecedent to anything other than descriptions of Nebuchadnezzar's armies or seafaring
princes lamenting the destruction of this island city?

Are we adding to the book?

These apologetics mention the evasive tactic of “many nations” refering to future conquerors. Here's a couple of little
half baked maps from a couple of Christian operated web sites;
http://www.ebibleteacher.com/batlasweb/sld028.htm http://cofcnet.com/lib/books/daniel/babylonian_1.html
Just how many “nations” of 2,600 years ago do you think were a part of this empire? How about finding out by reading
the books of 2Kings, 2Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Jeremiah and Daniel? And, considering the pool of strong men
Nebuchadnezzar had to choose from, he certainly could have conceivably mounted an attack of wave after wave.

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Nebuchadnezzar is not the "many nations" referenced in verse 3. Instead, he is the first of the "many nations" referenced in
verse 3.


And, no matter how many times I read this chapter, I still can't find this in the text. DA, could you possibly bring yourself
to at least giving me a hint where the bible tells us this?

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However, prosperity and power make
their own enemies. Early in the 6th Century BC Nebuchadnezzar,
King of Babylon, laid siege to the walled city for 13 years. Tyre
stood firm, but it is probable that at this time the residents of the
mainland city abandoned it for the safety of the Island. In 332 BC
Alexander the Great set out to conquer this strategic coastal base in
the war between the Greeks and the Persians. Unable to storm the
city, he blockaded Tyre for 7 months. Again Tyre held on. But the
conqueror used the debris of the abandoned mainland city to build a
causeway and once within reach of the city walls, Alexander used
his siege engines to batter and finally breach the fortifications.(http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/900/910/919/sour/sour.html)...Tyre is an island. When it was under siege by Alexander, it was protected by high, heavy walls of stone. These walls were 2 miles in circumference and a half a mile
off shore. The height of these walls were 150 feet facing the shore, and they were stronger and thicker than any Alexander had ever attacked before. It had a strong
navy. Alexander soon realized its importance and thus decided to attack it.

Alexander's was not the first siege Tyre had seen. It had survived two sieges from the Assyrians. The first one lasted four years, from 701 to 679 B.C. The other
lasted nine years, this time from 671

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Issue #1 - Who Are "They"?

"They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise.." (NIV)

This verse is pivotal to many of the arguments of each side. Our side would say that the "they" in v. 12 refers back the "nations" in
v. 3-5, and were represented by Alexander the Great, who did the things described in v. 12, thus fulfilling the prophecy. Skeptics
and other critics, however, say that the "they" in v. 12 refers to the elements of Nebuchadnezzar's forces in verses 7 and 11.
Nebbie never did the things ascribed to "they," in verse 12 - he failed to take Tyre at all - so the prophecy, it is said, was not
fulfilled.

A key here is that the "they" in v. 12 can only refer to the "nations" in v. 3. Let's see how this is so.

Verse 3: The nations are mentioned.
Verse 4: The nations are referenced as "they."
Verse 7: Nebbie is introduced, along with his horses, chariots, horsemen, and army.
Verse 8: Says "HE will ravage your settlements on the mainland...HE will set up siege works against you (etc.)" At this point
we see the personification of Nebbie in his forces begin. Obviously, Nebbie did not PERSONALLY do the things described
while his army sat by and sipped coconuts.
Verse 9: says "HE will direct the blows of his battering ram..." Same as above; unless we want to argue that Nebbie only
used his personal battering ram which he didn't let anyone else use.
Verses 10-11: "His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war
horses, wagons and chariots when HE enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. The
hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; HE will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the
ground." Here we see two more cases where Nebbie's forces are personified under singular references to himself.

Now the key verse:

Verse 12: "They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise..." We may note that this is the first recurrence of "they"
since verse 4. That this is so is a strong literary argument, even in English, that the subject of the "they" in verse 3, the
"nations," is also to be identified with the actors in v. 12. Skeptics would have us apply the "they" to the folks in v. 7. Aside
from the fact that these folks have already been subsumed under Nebbie's pronoun, "HE," we may ask skeptics why they do
not refer "they" to much closer words which agree in the plural sense and thus could be regarded as antecedents - for
example, the "horses, wagons, and chariots" described in verses 10-11.(http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_05_05_03.htm)

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What is truly amazing is that inspite of this remarkable undeniable fulfillment you "skeptics" strain at gnats of this or that word

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Originally posted by the_ignored

Just to fan the flames even more:
from: http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?postid=740288#post740288

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The Tyre prophecies did indeed come to pass.

In the 26th chapter of Ezekiel (592-570 BC) seven things are predicted to happen to the city of Tyre:



1) Nebuchadnezzar will destroy the mainland of Tyre (Ezekiel 26:8).

2) Many nations against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3).

3) Make her a bare rock; flat like the top of a rock (Ezekiel 26:4).

4) Fishermen will spread their nets over the site (Ezekiel 26:5).

5) Throw the debris into the water (Ezekiel 26:12).

6) Never be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26:14).

7) Never be found again (Ezekiel 26:21) (2/285)



Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to mainland Tyre three years after the prophecy and after a 13 year siege (585-573 BC) Tyre made terms and acknowledged Babylonian authority over them (4 xxii.452) When Nebuchadnezzar broke the gates down, he found the city almost empty. The majority of the people had moved by ship to an island about 1/2 miles off the coast and fortified a city there. The mainland city was destroyed in 573 BC, as predicted. The city of Tyre on the island remained a powerful city for several hundred years. (2/286)



Alexander the Great, in his war on Persia, marching southward called on each city to open their gates to him, as part of his plan to deny the use to the Persian fleet. Tyre refused to do so, and Alexander laid siege to the city. Possessing no fleet, he demolished old Tyre, on the mainland, and with the debris built a causeway 200 feet wide across the straits separating the old and new towns, erecting towers and war engines at the farther end. (4/xxii. 452) Tyre continually raided the causeway with fire-ships greatly retarding progress, until Alexander pressured conquered subjects to make ships for his operation. After attaining a superior naval force, Alexander finished the causeway, battered the walls of Tyre down killed eight thousand of the inhabitants and sold thirty thousand into slavery. (5/153)



A history book by a secular historian reads, "Alexander the Great ... reduced Tyre to ruins... The larger part of the site of the once great city is now bare as the top of a rock --- a place where fishermen now spread their nets to dry." (5/55)



Another historian, John C. Beck, says, "The history of Tyre does not stop with after the conquest of Alexander. Men continue to rebuild her and armies continue to besiege her walls, until finally after sixteen hundred years, she falls never to be rebuilt again." (6/41)



All the prophecies of Ezekiel about Tyre have come true: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre; Many nations were against Tyre; Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site; (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre) the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring are located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried. All seven of the predictions came true in the minutest detail.

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Originally posted by darwin alogos

And finally, to cover your bases you now claim (#3) that the "prophecy" might have been written after the events?

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Originally posted by walt fristoe

For instance, the book of Isaiah was written by at least two people

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Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist

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Originally posted by walt fristoe

For instance, the book of Isaiah was written by at least two people

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I'm always interested in Documentary Hypothesis specifics. Could you supply substantiation?

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Ezekiel


<Back to Last Page > <Glossary Index>

Profile:
Name: Book of Ezekiel (Hebrew: laqzhy, "God strengthens")
Author: the Prophet Ezekiel
Dating: early 6th century BCE

Book of Ezekiel:
The book of Ezekiel recounts the story of Ezekiel (whose name means "God strengthens" and who is
counted among the three major prophets), a prophet who predicted the downfall of Judah and was
the first of the prophets to live outside of the Jewish promised land, having been exiled to Babylon
along with many others.

Writing in the early 6th century BCE, he was probably one of the Temple priests who, after his dire
predictions went unheeded, tried to give comfort to the other Jews who lived with him in exile. Upon
their return, he also worked to promote the kinds of laws and purity which, he hoped, would prevent
similar disasters in the future.

One of the prophecies Ezekiel has become well known for is his description of God and Magog.
According to Ezekiel, Gog was a nation to the north from which a prince, Magog, would arise and
attack the Jews. He would be defeated and, as a result, the Jewish god would be acknowledged as
the one, true god by all people. Christian writers later took this to be a reference to a coming
apocalypse and the author of Revelation identified Magog as being part of a Satanic force. (http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_ezekiel.htm)

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