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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2003 : 15:39:35 [Permalink]
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| Ritual behavior among Bonobos was noticed as early as 1916. Wolfgang Köhler wrote about it in Chimps at some length in The Mentality of Apes. It has the survival element of heightening the emotional attachment of the group for each other. I should add that this is ritual dancing and not religion. Western Lowland Gorillas have been seen to do this too. My friend Ndume is a wonderful dancer who hardly ever walks on all fours. He can spin like a bobby-sockser. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 15:58:44 [Permalink]
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| Duh! I had forgotten all about Köhler! Thanks, JP. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 22:32:27 [Permalink]
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Slater, I always thought that instead of god making humans in his image that it was humans who made god in our image. Since Koko perceives god as a female guerrilla I guess that's true for all us apes.
PhDreamer I didn't mean to highjack the thread it just seemed like a blanket statement with no empirical way to verify the claim. Behavioral science like all science is tricky business because someone inevitably comes along and says No, No, No, you've got it all wrong. It also sounds like the behavioral psychologists may be trying to find human ritualistic behavior in another species. Projecting one cultures behavioral pattern on another culture is risky enough. As for animal behavior I think we're just starting to scratch the surface where much of what we thought we knew is often being rewritten. And from what I've read many animals frequently engage in certain types of behavior, (I won't call them rituals,) that have no apparent reason as far as survivability or procreation goes and for which science still has no explanation. That doesn't mean I believe they're worshiping their perception of a god.
I hope you'll pardon my interruption of your debate but I was predestined by DA's god to exercise my free will to post at this time.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 23:06:51 [Permalink]
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Stargirl, Koko is a very nice gorilla indeed; not a nasty guerrila (those are fighters who raid behind enemy lines and not great apes). I think that her concern wasn't with god but really about the lipstick. She loves makeup and when allowed to play with it she puts Tammy Fay Baker to shame.
That's her to the left, eating the Jack-o-lantern I gave her at Halloween. The stick like thing she is holding is a horn. We were trying to answer some questions researchers poised about the understanding of music. There's a Bonobo in Georga, named Kanzi, who is working with drums. I would think Koko got the better deal except that Paul McCartney had a session playing with Kanzi (the Ringo jokes have already made the rounds)
Your estimation of the science of animal behavior is a bit behind the times. We are chugging right along thank you. Apes do have rituals that are cultural and it appears that dolphins, false killer whales, and elephant seals do too.
Many birds have elaborate rituals which serve no purpose other than pair bonding ...but these aren't cultural except in a very , very broad sense. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 00:02:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Stargirl
PhDreamer I didn't mean to highjack the thread it just seemed like a blanket statement with no empirical way to verify the claim.
Well, I tried to avoid suggesting this in my wording. Guess I blew it.
quote:
Behavioral science like all science is tricky business because someone inevitably comes along and says No, No, No, you've got it all wrong. It also sounds like the behavioral psychologists may be trying to find human ritualistic behavior in another species. Projecting one cultures behavioral pattern on another culture is risky enough.
Well, there are numerous similar behaviors and behavior analogues between species. The example of religion is just something that doesn't appear to have a behavior analogue in other animals.
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As for animal behavior I think we're just starting to scratch the surface where much of what we thought we knew is often being rewritten. And from what I've read many animals frequently engage in certain types of behavior, (I won't call them rituals,) that have no apparent reason as far as survivability or procreation goes and for which science still has no explanation. That doesn't mean I believe they're worshiping their perception of a god.
Sure. As I'm arguing with DA in the other thread, "personality" and/or "consciousness" is exceedingly hard to define, because there are precious few behavioral dividing lines.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 11:29:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
Your estimation of the science of animal behavior is a bit behind the times. We are chugging right along thank you. Apes do have rituals that are cultural and it appears that dolphins, false killer whales, and elephant seals do too.
Please excuse my ignorance, this is way out of my field, but it's fascinating. Slater, how do these rituals differ from, say, the play-bow behavior of canines, or would that also fall into the cultural ritual catagory? |
"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 15:33:52 [Permalink]
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| What I am calling ritual in animals are EMPs (elaborate motion patterns) that are learned and so are part of a rudimentary culture. It was a big no no to even suggest culture in animals until recently when the amount of field observations of it became overwhelming. To go further out on the anthropomorphic limb an EMP is nothing more than a dance. With the pinnipeds it's pretty obvious that it doesn't establish ranking in the herd but does reinforce and confirm it. With the cetaceans and the apes it's looks for all the world like joie de vivre. Gorillas actually laugh when they do it. |
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Stargirl
Skeptic Friend
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 18:29:15 [Permalink]
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Slater, I didn't intend to infer that I thought Koko's concept of a god was the same as humans. I think even people who believe in a god have a hard time agreeing with each other as to what a god is, perhaps I should have put a smiley after my comment.
And I agree with you that animal research is progressing quite well. I inherited many of my grandfathers' textbooks from when he was a teacher, 1915 through 1955. My comment about rewriting had to do with those old Science/Nature textbook views on animal behavior. Most were of the opinion that animals respond almost exclusively from instinct that is hard wired into the brain. And that while some animals could be trained or conditioned they had no free will or sense of self. I hope I'm phrasing that right. As you said in a follow-up post to think otherwise was a big no no until recently. I get a kick whenever I read about research that shows animals learn to fashion tools and passing the knowledge on to their young or guerillas that can communicate with us. So I have no doubt that in the coming years we'll find that the inner workings of the minds of animals are more complicated they we ever imagined. Maybe we'll learn something about our human psyche along the way.
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If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him - Voltaire |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 20:03:13 [Permalink]
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What is meant by "divine foreknowledge"? Are we refering to the omniscience of God: all knowing, including the future? Are you actually being open to the idea of God, but cannot see how such a thing could be?
meaning, PH, that you don't think God can exist with this infinite knowledge and predict future events and still let men have free choice?
Or, are you saying you don't think men have free wills at all and therefore they are in bondage to something?
Or, you just don't believe in God, therefore, the "divine foreknowledge" idea is ludicrous, thus, it is incompatible with any statement?
Or, both sides of the statement are patently false?
Or, what am I missing? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 11:50:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
What is meant by "divine foreknowledge"? Are we refering to the omniscience of God: all knowing, including the future? Are you actually being open to the idea of God, but cannot see how such a thing could be?
I like to think so.
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meaning, PH, that you don't think God can exist with this infinite knowledge and predict future events and still let men have free choice?
That's about right.
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Or, are you saying you don't think men have free wills at all and therefore they are in bondage to something?
No. There's a huge difference between determinsim and predeterminism.
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Or, you just don't believe in God, therefore, the "divine foreknowledge" idea is ludicrous, thus, it is incompatible with any statement?
If I thought this, I would have said I thought this. 
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 16:46:01 [Permalink]
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Slater, I didn't intend to infer that I thought Koko's concept of a god was the same as humans.
She doesn't really have a concept of god. She understands everything we say, and she hears the word used in conversation. But she doesn't think that it's an actual thing. She prefers the word "devil" anyway. When she feels the need to curse she calls her friends devils. Sometime she makes her "scary alligator" (a rubber toy) bit "red girl" her favorite troll doll. Scary alligator is a poop devil, we are told.
My comment about rewriting had to do with those old Science/Nature textbook views on animal behavior.
That's because they were written before anyone started to do any fieldwork. It's a very new area.
Most were of the opinion that animals respond almost exclusively from instinct that is hard wired into the brain.
This is a concept we inherit from religion and not science. It's very hard to get people to see past it.
And that while some animals could be trained or conditioned they had no free will or sense of self.
Free will is a meaningless term, another piece of nonsense left over from our superstitious past. The church has left us with this strange idea that we aren't animals. That we are supernaturally different from every other creature. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I get a kick whenever I read about research that shows animals learn to fashion tools and passing the knowledge on to their young or guerillas that can communicate with us.
G o r i l l a s, please. A guerilla is a soldier, a raider who attacks the enemy from the rear.
Koko, and any number of other great apes, can not only communicate with signs, she can read and write. She scores an 85 on the SB IQ text. That is a little below average for a human but still falls in the "normal" range
So I have no doubt that in the coming years we'll find that the inner workings of the minds of animals are more complicated they we ever imagined.
We already know that. But it is difficult to spread the word and still fund raise effectively. That is the nastiest part about science…it costs money to do it. Talking apes are fascinating to people, I spent most of yesterday answering letters from children about them. But it does smack of a side show entertainment. People are surprised that they can't just come and see Koko, like she were a show or something.
But when you really think about what it means it can't help but shake your worldview. Sometimes people respond with awe and sometimes with angry. Some insist that it's only a trick, like teaching a parrot to talk or a dog to shake hands. It frightens them to even consider that can animals think and feel. But they most assuredly can.
At Halloween I visited Koko and Ndume and Koko was drawing with crayons. I asked her what she was drawing and she said "eye hat". I had no idea what she was talking about. But when the paper was covered with enough reds and greens she poked two holes in it about the size of quarters. Then she pressed the paper on my face, took it back and put it on hers. Peeking out the holes. It was a Halloween mask--an "eye hat." This is no trick this is fully comprehended communication.
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 18:27:30 [Permalink]
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Doomar asked PH, you don't think God can exist with this infinite knowledge and predict future events and still let men have free choice. and PH replied, That's about right.
Are you saying then, that you believe God to be like a man in that if we knew future events, especially something bad that would happen to a loved one, we would try to prevent it? And therefore, God being all powerful and all loving, as the Christian doctrine says (God is love, I John)does not prevent such things, therefore He cannot be as loving and good as we, therefore, He must not exist, or therefore, I cannot believe in such a god. Can you define your belief in this regard? Or are you saying He does not have foreknowledge, so as to give men there free wills? You gotta help me here.
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Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
| Edited by - Doomar on 01/25/2003 18:30:22 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 20:16:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
Are you saying then, that you believe God to be like a man in that if we knew future events, especially something bad that would happen to a loved one, we would try to prevent it? And therefore, God being all powerful and all loving, as the Christian doctrine says (God is love, I John)does not prevent such things, therefore He cannot be as loving and good as we, therefore, He must not exist, or therefore, I cannot believe in such a god. Can you define your belief in this regard? Or are you saying He does not have foreknowledge, so as to give men there free wills? You gotta help me here.
I don't remember saying anything about all-loving. In any case, you asked me a question and I answered it pretty straightforwardly. It seems you don't understand your own question. Maybe you should rephrase? |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 13:28:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
At Halloween I visited Koko and Ndume and Koko was drawing with crayons. I asked her what she was drawing and she said "eye hat". I had no idea what she was talking about. But when the paper was covered with enough reds and greens she poked two holes in it about the size of quarters. Then she pressed the paper on my face, took it back and put it on hers. Peeking out the holes. It was a Halloween mask--an "eye hat." This is no trick this is fully comprehended communication.
I know this isn't on topic but this just fascinates me and has led me to start checking out some informtion on this subject. What you are doing there sounds infinitely interesting slater.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 03:05:11 [Permalink]
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Well, I just read this whole thread, and remain unconvinced of anything. There's just too many paradoxes whenever anything with the 'omni' prefix, (And that includes the magazine). But, on the other hand, I can say that I have no free will, but only when my wife walks in the room. After ten years of marriage, she still...well, that's a different story.
Now, if anyone is interested in a fictional story of God and the great apes, Robert Silverberg wrote a terrific short story called 'The Pope of the Chimps'. I'd love to hear Slater's critique of the story.
http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/silverberg/silverberg1.html
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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