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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 01/28/2003 : 20:42:53 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
Oh, you're asking me for a definition of "personality"? Hell, I don't know and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just observe
behaviors. I don't have any built-in dogma that madates things like "personality is X, Y and Z regardless of what
observations suggest."
(This is from BP thread but it belongs here) We need to set this in perspective,this thread started when Phd raised the question whether "Divine Foreknowledge" interfered with "Free Will".To which I added that we needed both, how from a materialistic view such a " Will" came into existence and a working definition of the MIND behind such a "Will". Now hopefully some open minds will notice the epistemologcial schizophrina going on here.On the one hand Phd states "He Knows Divine Foreknowledge",will limit "Free Will",but on the other hand,he "Doesn't Know How or What" such a "Will" came to be or "What it is"???? Very very strange. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/28/2003 20:44:09 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 20:53:33 [Permalink]
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| How did free will come to be? It's in Genesis. The devil, in the guise of the talking snake gives man free will and God damns all mankind for having it. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 20:53:45 [Permalink]
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| I do not have time for nonsense, DA. You have provided no "working definitions" and, aside from your egregious strawmen, I have not contradicted myself. Please collect your thoughts and attempt to make an argument out of them. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 23:22:47 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
I do not have time for nonsense,
Good that makes two of us. quote:
You have provided no "working definitions" and, aside from your egregious strawmen, I
have not contradicted myself.
Do you notice that I quote you to avoid these kinds of meaningless charges,I would hope that you could do the same.For the record I've stated twice "a working definition"(cogito ergo sum).As for your allegations that I'm creating "strawmen" I again refer to the FACT that I provide YOUR QUOTES to your views.Finally, you can claim all you want that you haven't "contradicted" yourself,but the facts remain the same:(1).You claim that your "Free Will" is hindered by "Divine Foreknowledge";(2)You have according to your own statement no idea what a "personality" is: quote:
Oh, you're asking me for a definition of "personality"? Hell, I don't know and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just observe
behaviors. I don't have any built-in dogma that madates things like "personality is X, Y and Z regardless of what
observations suggest."
Hence,if you don't KNOW what a personality is how on Earth can you also CLAIM it's "Free Will" is restricted by "Divine Foreknowledge"?  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/28/2003 23:24:09 |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 04:27:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Slater
How did free will come to be? It's in Genesis. The devil, in the guise of the talking snake gives man free will and God damns all mankind for having it.
Slater, you're sounding like you believe in God. Do you even believe you have a free will and, if so, what does that mean and how did you, an atheist, get it? |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 04:35:44 [Permalink]
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Are you saying then, that you believe God to be like a man in that if we knew future events, especially something bad that would happen to a loved one, we would try to prevent it? And therefore, God being all powerful and all loving, as the Christian doctrine says (God is love, I John)does not prevent such things, therefore He cannot be as loving and good as we, therefore, He must not exist, or therefore, I cannot believe in such a god. Can you define your belief in this regard? Or are you saying He does not have foreknowledge, so as to give men there free wills? You gotta help me here.
[/quote]
I don't remember saying anything about all-loving. In any case, you asked me a question and I answered it pretty straightforwardly. It seems you don't understand your own question. Maybe you should rephrase?
[/quote]
The questions I am posing to you are to find out what you believe about God. If you are evasive in posting your beliefs about what you think God is like and doing in regard to your posted topic, it is difficult to logically affirm and/or refute unspecified beliefs. If I have to spell out all your probable beliefs for you, I best move on to a more productive and open discussion. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Computer Org
Skeptic Friend
392 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 09:42:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by PhDreamer
Logically incompatible.
NOT!!
Try a late Twentieth & TwentyFirst Centuries' view: Probability Theory and Stochastic Processes, wherein "Divine Foreknowledge" would see a broad spectrum (--via "Free Will"--) of possibilities, each with an associated probability of occurance.
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Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my life. --Falstaff |
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Infamous
Skeptic Friend
85 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 11:27:54 [Permalink]
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Hmmm...well, from thinking about this for a while I've come to the following conclusion:
Divine foreknowledge goes against causality unless divine interference also occurs. Therefore divine foreknowldge and free will are mutually exclusive.
However, this is assuming that a divine being is subject to the same laws of physics as everyone else. If the divine being is not subject to the laws of causality, then divine foreknowledge and free will may or may not coexist. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 14:35:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Org
Try a late Twentieth & TwentyFirst Centuries' view: Probability Theory and Stochastic Processes, wherein "Divine Foreknowledge" would see a broad spectrum (--via "Free Will"--) of possibilities, each with an associated probability of occurance.
I love apologetics. Solve one problem, create another. This argument ensures that God's probabilistic foreknowledge renders him unable to instantiate anything resembling a plan. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 20:53:15 [Permalink]
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| Phd:"I love apologetics. Solve one problem, create another." Kind of like having an impersonal mind's "Free Will" constrained by Divine Foreknowledge.Is this nebulus impersonal "Free Will" of yours animal,vegetable,or mineral? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/29/2003 20:59:19 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 23:17:18 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
This argument ensures that God's probabilistic foreknowledge
renders him unable to instantiate anything resembling a plan.
I have a book on Biblical Prophecy written in the 1860's in which the author cites that based on various prophecies in both the Tannach and the NT that the Jews (at that time scattered all over the world)would return to their homeland Israel.That now is a historic fact so it seems the evidence is at odds with your hypothetical word games. Also that despite your scoffing God's plan is right on time. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/29/2003 23:19:26 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2003 : 23:26:18 [Permalink]
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Slater, you're sounding like you believe in God.
Of course I don't. God is just a character in a novel. But you are getting the novel's story line all wrong.
Free will is the ability to choose for yourself. To be able to choose one must be able to distinguish differences in values. Without that ability a person might pick one thing or another but for no reason. There would be the freedom but not the will, these picks would by necessity be arbitrary.
Talking Snake helps Adam and Eve gain free will by getting them the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil."
God didn't want man to have free will. He had forbidden man to eat the fruit. However lacking the knowledge of right and wrong there was no way for man to know that disobeying god was evil.
God was so pissed that man had gained free will that he punished men severely. In an attempt to undermine the exercise free will god saddled man with countless arbitrary laws. So many that it became impossible for humans to follow them all.
To this day the church frowns on people thinking for themselves and continually lays down edicts about every aspect of their behavior.
Why you insist that god gave man free will when most of the story is god trying to stop man's free will is beyond me.
Do you even believe you have a free will and, if so, what does that mean and how did you, an atheist, get it?
Free will, as you use the term, is absolute nonsense. It is an attempt at explaining why people act like people and god acts like he isn't there. People act like people because they are people, and because the god that might restrain them is imaginary. You don't need a catch phrase to explain why something that doesn't exist isn't taking any action.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 07:19:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
I have a book on Biblical Prophecy written in the 1860's in which the author cites that based on various prophecies in both the Tannach and the NT that the Jews (at that time scattered all over the world)would return to their homeland Israel.That now is a historic fact so it seems the evidence is at odds with your hypothetical word games.
This prophecy, did it include the systematic murder of 6 million Jews immediately prior to their return? No? Seems like a rather significant omission, don't you think?
In any case, the knowledge of Scripture obviously existed prior to the creation of Israel. A self-fulfilling prophecy is much more likely. And what do you mean by "scattered all over the world"? Are we still laboring under the pre-15th Century notion that Europe = World? Were there Jews in China, Argentina and New Zealand that all made the arduous trek after WWII?
quote:
Also that despite your scoffing God's plan is right on time.
Right on time for what? To prevent the systematic murder of 6 million of His people?
By the by, would you care to explain how Computer Org's "probabilistic foreknowledge" allows for prophecy? I assume that's what prompted you to post this. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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tw101356
Skeptic Friend
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 10:26:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Phd: quote:
This argument ensures that God's probabilistic foreknowledge
renders him unable to instantiate anything resembling a plan.
I have a book on Biblical Prophecy written in the 1860's in which the author cites that based on various prophecies in both the Tannach and the NT that the Jews (at that time scattered all over the world)would return to their homeland Israel.That now is a historic fact so it seems the evidence is at odds with your hypothetical word games. Also that despite your scoffing God's plan is right on time.
The Jews didn't return to their homeland. Many did, but most are
still scattered all over the world and the largest population is
in the USA.
Sorry. Your prophecy gets an incomplete..
-- Henry
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- TW
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 20:33:19 [Permalink]
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Phd: quote:
This prophecy, did it include the systematic murder of 6 million Jews immediately prior to their return? No? Seems like a
rather significant omission, don't you think?
No it didn't and yes it is,however,I never said it was exhaustive in every detail. But nonetheless, they did return to their homeland as predicted. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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