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Kristin
Skeptic Friend
Canada
84 Posts |
 Posted - 07/30/2001 : 15:01:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I had someone put a huge dent (not a ding) in my brand new car before I even got the payment book or permanent license tag. That was five years ago, and I still don't know who did it.
Oich.
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It does not change the fact that there should be no cameras.
I'm going to say (as respectfully as possible) that that is an opinion, not a fact. A very valid opinion I might add, and one I share.
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Too many people think it's okay to take away the liberties they don't need. You're a responsible driver, so sure, post cameras. You're a Christian, so sure, post the Ten Commandments. You don't own a gun, so sure, make lots of laws about gun control. Open your eyes. Soon you will lose liberties that you DO care about.
I'm going to presume that none of that is a personal reference. Esp as I only have 20 posts here, that would make it a pretty narrow scope of what 'I' want. (I don't have guns, but my father, brother, uncles, and fiance all do.)
Now, my example is merely to show that this could be seen as a very helpful thing. But it could also become an abuse of personal rights. There are also a lot of liberties that I have already lost that I care about. Like the right to have a broken down vehicle in my yard. We can't have that in our rural community, but it is enforced ONLY when the enforcer doesn't like the person who's got the old Ford/Dodge/Chebby up on blocks. I'd like the right to buy ammunition without a gun license, as I know the people who want to disobey the law will get it anyways, and if Dad wants me to pick up some buckshot when I'm going to the mall anyhow, I should damn well be able to. I'm old enough to have a gun license.
So this leads on to tobacco licenses, (possibly ganja licenses based on Health Canada's new decision), liquor cards, computer licenses (as a tech I can almost agree with that one ;) etc until you can't take a damn shit against govt regulations. So I have sympathy. But as I said, you should be able to see potential good in it. Unfortunately I don't think the govt can keep the bad out of it.
Good judgement comes from experience: experience comes from bad judgement. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2001 : 18:41:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
until you can't take a damn shit against govt regulations.
In fulfillment of one of my life goals, one day I am going to go to Canada and smuggle back a damn 5 gallon toilet!
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Ma gavte la nata! |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 03:21:09 [Permalink]
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Libertarian? That explains a lot.
For example the freedom is all that is important viewpoint.
Libertarian freedom is paper freedom, not practical and therefore basically useless.
As for not needed liberties, the liberties that aren't needed are decided by the government and the courts accountable to the majority of the public.
As for limiting to things endanger the public. Running red lights is doing that no matter where it is done.
Also people who run red lights in quite places often end up doing that in busy places. Good idea to make them get rid of the habit.
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 03:39:24 [Permalink]
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The Monday night Nightline covered this subject. Did anyone happen to catch it? I found it interesting that neither side of this issue could come up with a compelling case. The police presented a claim that statistics blew apart and the elected official appeared to want to make it easier to get away with certain crimes.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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michael
New Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 06:37:01 [Permalink]
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Liberty! It is my belief that everyone has the right to do whatever they want to do. If... they are not encroaching on another's rights.
The problem is that a person who is speeding excessively or running a red light is not only endangering his or herself they are risking other's lives (for the gain of reducing their commute by a few minutes, perhaps?) To say that they should not be punished until they kill or maim someone denys the victim their right, liberty, etc.
I strongly oppose routine surveillance but find it hard to see the difference between someone sitting in front of a monitor attached to camera at an intersection and a police officer standing at an intersection.
I fear a large percentage of drivers on the road much more than I do Big Brother. At least for now. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2001 : 07:29:07 [Permalink]
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If you get a judgment against me for one million dollars, that's a paper judgment because I don't have a million dollars. Libertarian (incidently I'm a Democrat) freedoms are not paper freedoms until we have none left to take away.
Has anyone ever heard of assumption of the risk? If you walk out onto your front porch, you risk being hit with your newspaper by the paperboy. If you take a walk when it's overcast, you risk being caught in the rain. If you drive your car, you risk having an accident.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Sure, there is potential good that could come from the idea. I still firmly believe that it should not be implemented. No one should have their privacy taken away for something they might do.
Wendy Jones |
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bestonnet_00
Skeptic Friend
Australia
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 03:46:06 [Permalink]
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Absolute statement, and absolutly wrong.
Whether a persons rights get taken away depends on society which grants all of them. If society decides that the right of a person not to be killed by a person who breaks the law is more important.
So which is more important?
Your life, or the right of someone to try to get to work half a second earlier.
As for libertarian freedoms, if you can't pay to enforce them, you don't have any.
Under any right-libertarian system you have to pay a lot for it (left-libertarianism wouldn't have that problem).
Radioactive GM Crops.
Slightly above background.
Safe to eat.
But no activist would dare rip it out.
As they think it gives them cancer. |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 07:43:49 [Permalink]
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Give me liberty, or give death to those who are trying to take my liberty. (Hey, my life is important to me  .)
Seriously, cameras won't stop people from turning around to swat at their children, or tuning their radio, or driving too fast when they're late. This is not a perfect world. Tragic things will happen.
Please don't think I'm indifferent about the problems that lead to this issue. My father had an accident three years ago because some kid was speeding and lost control of his truck in the rain. The resulting closed head injury left Dad with huge medical debt, and a personality none of us recognize. Changing the things that make this country great won't bring him back.
Wendy Jones |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 10:54:36 [Permalink]
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I don't like it, but whenever i go to oregon i don't speed knowing I could run into one of those cameras anywhere. When I get back home it's another matter. I think the cameras are very effective.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 13:33:27 [Permalink]
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@tomic, that's you tho. There are those who could care less about whether their photographed or not.
Everytime you operate a vehicle you have a responsibility to those on the road with you. Unfortunately, there are those who choose not to practice responsibility or refuse to engage their brains before engaging the engine. Speeding has been shown not to get you to where you are going any sooner than driving the speed limit. I can almost guarantee that on Friday nights when I am on my way to work that those teenagers out there speeding are not trying to get where they're going before a certain time. They've failed to engage their brains. What is frightening to me - more than speeders - is those who are doing things like reading the newspaper, putting on makeup, shaving, working on computers, watching their kids in the rearview, looking for things on the floor boards and the myriad of other things that people do besides watching the road while driving. I seldom talk to my daughter while in the car - so I can watch the road and pay attention to what is coming at me from side roads.
I seriously doubt that a camera would have stopped the arrogance of the gentleman who drove his truck through an intersection in front of me, I was unable to stop my car on the ice. It wasn't his fault - despite the traffic sign on his road saying *STOP* - because his truck was worth more than my car. IOW - because his truck was worth more than my car he should have had the right of way.
What needs changed is the odd thinking that people seem to practice once they get behind the whee. Cameras can't and won't do that, education and a bit of courtesy will.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 13:38:19 [Permalink]
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beleive me, three tickets mailed to you and a huge increase in your insurance or even a cancellation of your drivers license are very educational. No this doesn't work the first mailing or maybe even the second, but eventually you had better believe someone notices. If someone doesn't care that they don't have a license or insurance....well they won't care about anything and nothing can be done about them except for confiscation of their vehicles.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 14:32:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't like it, but whenever i go to oregon i don't speed knowing I could run into one of those cameras anywhere. When I get back home it's another matter. I think the cameras are very effective.
OH! That explains a lot. Now I know why when those Oragonians come down here they go like a snail.
quote:
beleive me, three tickets mailed to you and a huge increase in your insurance or even a cancellation of your drivers license are very educational. No this doesn't work the first mailing or maybe even the second, but eventually you had better believe someone notices. If someone doesn't care that they don't have a license or insurance....well they won't care about anything and nothing can be done about them except for confiscation of their vehicles.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
@, we here in California have a huge problem with unlicensed drivers. It's a joke, not to drive near someone with an old beat up car. Cameras are not going to change that, you are right. These people don't pay for any tickets they get. Guess it's like the way the government taxes us. The few pay for the many.
VHEMT |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 15:27:58 [Permalink]
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Cameras are not intended to put a stop to people driving without licenses or insurance. Heh, I would like it if you had to swipe a card or something at the gas pump that only lets you pump IF you have insurance. It could also work for unpaid tickets.
Personally, I think you have the tax thing completely backwards unless you have some actual statistics to back it up. The vast majority of Americans pay taxes, therefore the many pay for the few. The few in my opinion are rich folks that have tax deductions and corporate welfare that are unavailable to most of us.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2001 : 23:31:07 [Permalink]
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The few in my opinion are rich folks that have tax deductions and corporate welfare that are unavailable to most of us.
@tomic
@, I know we don't mean this to get into a tax debate. I was trying, perhaps badly to make a comparision.
From what I've heard it's the middle class who have most of the burden. That's what I meant. And it's the honest person, who I believe are most of us, who pay tickets. The people without ins. and licenses, the same people IMO who don't pay tickets are the few. And it's us who pay higher prices because of them.
VHEMT |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2001 : 00:05:29 [Permalink]
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I can basically agree with that, but there are plenty of other factors like theft and statistics that contribute heavily and have nothing to do with a lack of insurance.
It's not always those "other" people that are to blame.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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