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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2003 : 16:42:38
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It's really bothered me that since the 2000 election I have heard over and over again how if Al Gore had been president he would have just appeased our enemies without any indication or qualification to go along with that statement.
Now let's take a look at who is president and what that president is actually doing:
North Korea
- Offers oil
- Offers cash
- Makes statements about no intention of attacking(turns out he was lying)
- Backs off his labelling of North Korea as part of the axis of evil
Wow, he's as willing to toss away his principles as he is willing to toss away American lives! Can you say Let's make a Deal?
I suppose many of his supporters will look the other way on this and offer some weak excuses but it's more than clear, at least to me, that Bush has no credible foreign policy. But lets's face reality here. Korea is the threat Bush makes Iraq out to be and Iraq is just not at all the same threat. God help North Korea if they suddenly discover rich oil reserves.
@tomic
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2003 : 21:15:54 [Permalink]
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| That's whats got everyone going over here. Korea has long range missiles, nuclear weapons and and army of 1,000,000 troops. Nth Korea ain't that for from Australia, and I think the threat from there is of more danger to us. However, we are going to send troops to Iraq to a supposed "War on Terrorism" that will create more terrorists (and refugees as well) when there is a country that is a lot closer and as you said @tomic, seemingly a lot more dangerous. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 01/21/2003 21:16:29 |
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2003 : 05:28:03 [Permalink]
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This is so american.
quote:
[sarcasm]We have nuclear weapons and we are good. We are the saviours of the world thus.
You have nuclear weapons and thus I say you're evil. Evil, you are, yes. Evil!
And now we're bombing you.[/sarcasm]
At least this is the impression we get over here in Germany.
Oh sorry, I missed that last part of yours, @tomic.  |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
| Edited by - riptor on 01/22/2003 05:30:31 |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 17:08:11 [Permalink]
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| The power of the atom needs to be in the right hands. Period. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2003 : 20:51:13 [Permalink]
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| There are only two things I hate; those who are intolerant of other people's cultures........and the Dutch- Nigel Powers |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 05:35:22 [Permalink]
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Sorry, but what are the Dutch-Nigel powers?
I mean, Dutch, okay, the netherlands are only 100 kilometers west of my home, but Nigel? ;-) |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 05:57:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
The power of the atom needs to be in the right hands. Period.
Who decides who has the right hands though????
And who is to stop the people who think that they have the right in unleashing the power of this said atom?
Certainly not the UN, no one listens to them |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 11:14:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
The power of the atom needs to be in the right hands. Period.
Who decides who has the right hands though????
And who is to stop the people who think that they have the right in unleashing the power of this said atom?
Certainly not the UN, no one listens to them
"Anyone who says God is on their side is dangerous as hell."
lapel button |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 11:54:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by riptor
Sorry, but what are the Dutch-Nigel powers?
I mean, Dutch, okay, the netherlands are only 100 kilometers west of my home, but Nigel? ;-)
I believe that that was a quoted joke by someone named Nigel Powers.
It should read: "There are only two things I hate: those who are intolerant of other people's cultures...and the Dutch." - Nigel Powers |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 12:25:48 [Permalink]
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| I may be nuts, but I fear for the lives of the two most liberal US Supreme Court justices. I'm afraid the religious right will stop at nothing to overturn Roe v. Wade, but the current Court will not likely do it. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 01/24/2003 12:27:25 |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 16:14:05 [Permalink]
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| Nigel Powers is Austin's father. I know there are people from different countries here, but who hasn't seen Goldmember? |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2003 : 17:34:25 [Permalink]
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[quote][i]Originally posted by gezzam
Who decides who has the right hands though????
And who is to stop the people who think that they have the right in unleashing the power of this said atom?
First of all Nuclear arms are necessary. After Trinity, where America showed the world its new toy, the arms race was on. Russia scurried to make theirs to even the score. The cold war would not have been so cold without both sides fearing unbelievable destruction. (The world either has to have no nukes, or if there is nukes more than one country needs to possess them.) It took a lot of conventional war out and put diplomacy in. (I will admit there was some close calls, the Cuban missile crisis could have been ugly.)
This is the point, these countries gather weapons in hopes they will not ever have to use them. Peace by superior fire power. These countries want nothing more than to preserve its own way of life. It's the countries who seek weapons for malevolent goals, who have little or no concern for human life (even their own people) that are the "wrong hands".
Under a 1994 agreement, North Korea promised to freeze its nuclear weapons program in return for fuel oil, paid for by Washington, and two light water reactors that cannot easily be converted to produce atomic weapons material.
"Look at what North Korea's doing with respect to the possible production of additional nuclear weapons," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told a briefing. "Here's the world's biggest proliferator of ballistic missile technology. If it ends up with additional nuclear weapons, it might very well be in the business of proliferating them to other countries
Trying to appease Allah by blowing up the 'infidels,' is the wrong hands as well. Rouge, paper leaders like Osama, and dictators like Saddam need to be stamped out immediately no matter what the UN says. If Saddam gets a bomb he will use it.
Everyone has become so bloody PC these days. Saddam is insane he has proved it many times. Tortured and killed thousands(many of his own), used chemical weapons on the Kurds(hence the no fly zone), and people still protect this man. If he drops a bomb in Germany or France those countries are going to be the first to change their tune and let the good ol' US of A finish what they should have in the early 90's. Sorry for the rant but it pisses me right off. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
| Edited by - Fireballn on 01/24/2003 17:53:35 |
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riptor
Skeptic Friend
Germany
70 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 04:56:15 [Permalink]
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@Tokyodreamer and Fireballn:
THX.
Sure I know Nigel Powers from "Goldmember", but I simply didn't make a connection between what I quoted and his name.
quote:
First of all Nuclear arms are necessary.
Did you use them after Hiroshima? Everyone knows it would be plain simply stupid to use such a bomb - except for Mister Bush that is, perhaps.
Thus it doesn't even count as a "strategic threat". |
Hail the Big bearded Jellyfish up in heaven above. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 06:22:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Look at what North Korea's doing with respect to the possible production of additional nuclear weapons," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told a briefing. "Here's the world's biggest proliferator of ballistic missile technology. If it ends up with additional nuclear weapons, it might very well be in the business of proliferating them to other countries
So then I presume that it is O.K. for America to sell weapons to these countries when it suits them. ie the Iraq / Iran war. Whether they are nuclear weapons or "normal" weapons, where do you draw the line? Right at the moment, America is a law unto itself ignoring the UN and the wishes of the majority of people in the world. This is not a war of liberation, they were quite happy to supply Saddam with arms when he was their man in the Middle East. If America wanted to liberate people, they would start by banning their large corporations hiring outrageously cheap labour in Asia, they would place 100,000 troops around Zimbabwe and pressure Mugabe, they would liberate the people that happen to live under despots around the world.
Bush doesn't give a flying frogs fuck about the liberating people in Iraq. He is more concerned that if Saddam goes down, that he doesn't set the oil wells alight (and not for environmental reasons either). If he gave a shit about Middle Eastern states supporting terrorism, maybe he should look at his business partners the Bin Ladens and the rest of the wealthy people in Saudi Arabia that are proven terrorist sponsors. But no, he won't want to risk his precious reservoirs of oil.
There's enough nutcases in this world without the good ole Texas ranger wanting to fire off his six shooter willy nilly.
Yes, Saddam is a nutter, not unlike the leaders of other totalitarian regimes around the world. It's just that these ones aren't sitting on a goldmine. Consistency is all we want, why go after one with despot such gusto, yet ignore and even finance others. Yes, Saddam has committed atrocities on his people, however since America and its allies started bombing the crap out of the place, schools and hospitals have been destroyed, sanitation is non existent, literacy for children has dropped from 90% to less than 10% just to start with. Saddam doesn't suffer, the Iraqi people do. Death of ones loved ones brings the will for revenge on the attacker, this breeds terrorism – not to mention boatloads of refugees.
I don't have an issue with getting rid of the man; it's just the sheer hypocrisy in which it is being done. Wouldn't one of the Good ole US of A's infamous covert operations make more sense then an all out war risking hundreds or even thousands of lives of innocent people.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2003 : 14:23:37 [Permalink]
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"I don't have an issue with getting rid of the man; it's just the sheer hypocrisy in which it is being done."
Here here! There is a saying, that is true of war, any war, "When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers." Kind'a liked Saddam's suggestion of Bush and he, having a duel, a no lose situation... |
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