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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
 Posted - 01/26/2003 : 04:41:09 [Permalink]
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| Nubi, if that grass is the center of the USA, with the innocent people being Americans, the tune will change. I want it to end in Iraq, not North America. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 07:29:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
Nubi, if that grass is the center of the USA, with the innocent people being Americans, the tune will change. I want it to end in Iraq, not North America.
and from previous post
This is the point, these countries gather weapons in hopes they will not ever have to use them. Peace by superior fire power. These countries want nothing more than to preserve its own way of life. It's the countries who seek weapons for malevolent goals, who have little or no concern for human life (even their own people) that are the "wrong hands".
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,5893854%255E663,00.html
WASHINGTON - The US is considering using nuclear weapons in a possible war against Iraq to destroy underground command posts and stop Iraqis using weapons of mass destruction.
Top US private military expert William Arkin warned yesterday plans for using nuclear weapons against Iraq were being fleshed out at US Strategic Command, Nebraska.
"Nuclear weapons have, since they were first created, been part of the arsenal discussed by war planners," Mr Arkin said in the Los Angeles Times.
"But the Bush administration's decision to actively plan for possible pre-emptive use of such weapons, especially as so-called bunker busters, against Iraq represents a significant lowering of the nuclear threshold."
So much for hoping that they never have to use them, lets use weapons of mass destruction to combat a country that MAY weapons of mass destruction....
IT'S FUCKING MADNESS, this Bush bloke beginning to look like he could be more of a danger to the world than Saddam is....who controls this guy...it certainly isn't then senate, they have handed over complete power to him, and he's obviously drunk with it.
This is really scary. I just got married and want to have kids. What kind of crazy arse world are we leaving them?????
Edited to add;
The war has already started anyway, they have been bombing the place for years....
http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm
http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm ....etc, etc
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
| Edited by - gezzam on 01/26/2003 10:47:24 |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 12:56:51 [Permalink]
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| My roomate made an interesting comparison today - the US policy in Iraq and the Salem witch trials. If Saddam produces WMDs, we attack because, well, he has WMDs. If not, we attack because we know he has WMDs and he's just hiding them. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2003 : 13:48:42 [Permalink]
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Gessam- "This is really scary. I just got married and want to have kids. What kind of crazy arse world are we leaving them?????"
I think we all feel your concern. Since 9/11 this is a new world, and we need new solutions to deal with it. Nobody wants war, sometimes it becomes necessary.
PH, I think that is a good assessment of what is going on. The inspector thing is just a procedure to appease some of the queasy countries before Iraq is relieved of its leader. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 00:42:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
“It's really bothered me that since the 2000 election I have heard over and over again how if Al Gore had been president he would have just appeased our enemies without any indication or qualification to go along with that statement.
Now let's take a look at who is president and what that president is actually doing…”
You have a point. It sounds like that tried and true right wing claim of a liberally biased media. Of course, there is no longer a shred of evidence for this claim, (unless you count only one-sided anecdotal assertions as evidence), but this stuff just won't go away.
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“Saddam is insane he has proved it many times.”
Agreed…But, I am skeptical of the proposal that he would use such a weapon, considering he knows that most of the world would be out to see his head roll, and no other country would raise a finger in his defense. I am not trying to say that Saddam is not a threat to his own people, or neighboring nations, but I am yet to see convincing evidence that he supports international terrorism.
Now, I have no doubts that this individual would gladly use WMD's and nukes if his personal power is directly threatenned.
North Korea seems to me to be an entirely different issue. This is a very secretive nation with a ideological axe to grind. I am not comfortable believing that Kim would not use a nuclear weapon just to prove to us that they are not to be taken lightly. This assertion is, admittedly, a little extraordinary, but N.K. is a bit of a wildcard.
The administration should have never alienated N.K. or Iran with no more of a motive than to show it is really a Reaganesque reactionary gov't when dealing with foreign policy. The Bush II administration is in fact the one that threw down the gauntlet with it's “Axis of Evil” comment, and it's policies of alienation or intimidation towards those it doesn't like. Powell, though, seems to be a voice of reason in the midst of a sea of bravado.
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“Death of ones loved ones brings the will for revenge on the attacker, this breeds terrorism – not to mention boatloads of refugees.”
I think that this may be the biggest problem with our policy in the Middle East. We consistently attempt to enforce our will here, and in other regions, without a thought about understanding and addressing the causes of the problems plaguing any actions we take. For instance, Israel's practice of knocking down the homes of innocent and guilty Palestinians is going to do more to create suicide bombers, than to preventing them. And, those furious and hopeless terrorists know whose money pays for the bulldozers and those tanks.
Actually, I really do not have a problem with removing Saddam from power, either. I just can't jump on the patriotic appeal bandwagon for this war. It servrs our national interest little, unless the conspiracy theorists are correct, and our real goal is to control all of the world's energy resoursces. However, it does distract us from the real threats to word peace, such as N.K., and the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It further distracts us from the very real problems we face on the domestic front.
quote:
Wouldn't one of the Good ole US of A's infamous covert operations make more sense
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"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 15:24:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I think we all feel your concern. Since 9/11 this is a new world, and we need new solutions to deal with it. Nobody wants war, sometimes it becomes necessary.
Yes, I agree, sometimes war is necessary and it is the lesser of two evils. However what has got my heckles up is that this potential war is hypocritical and unnecessary.
Hans Blix just put his report on the table and there still is no proof that it is necessary for the US, the UK and their allies to needlessly kill innocent people. It almost amounts to terrorism itself.
If America and Australia were attacked by another nation threatening our democratic way of life threatened, I would be one of the first to help out (even though I would be of no use, I've never even held a gun - let alone fired one). However when America (the UK and potentially my own country) attacks with NO provocation and no real proof of a danger to either of our countries, it is that I oppose vehemently.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 16:53:19 [Permalink]
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That's just it. The case has not been made that Iraq is an actual threat to the USA and what little has been thrown out there has been lies which makes the USA look terrible to the rest of the world. Add to that Bush's "If you don't believe me, screw you, I'll do what I want" just adds to the bad image Americans already had around the world. That same image makes it really easy to recruit terrorists that want to hurt the US in any way they can. Thanks for nothing George is all I can muster right now.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 21:42:36 [Permalink]
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| I just hope the proof is not in the form of a mushroom cloud if Saddam is left to his personal agenda. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 22:27:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireballn
I just hope the proof is not in the form of a mushroom cloud if Saddam is left to his personal agenda.
Where is there proof that nuclear attack on Western (in fact any) nations is on his agenda? |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2003 : 23:55:51 [Permalink]
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| Did anyone else catch Powell's, "Time is running out," statement, wonder who wrote it for him? He read it word for word, thou, he's a good soldier. "Where is there proof that nuclear attack on Western (in fact any) nations is on his agenda?" Bet it is now, huh... |
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 11:21:37 [Permalink]
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For cryin' out loud. Get on with it! The war, that is.
Bush, Rumsfield and now Powell are committed to it. All troops except the Abrams tanks in Germany and the 101st Airborne in Kentucky, are in place. Start shooting! Get it over with! Sheesh!
As far as WMD. Saddam will unleash his biological and chemical weapons as soon as American combat boots hit the ground. He will dig them out of the desert sands and let fly. Why not? He's got nothing to lose. And if he really wants to cause chaos, he'll launch some chemical Scuds at Tel Aviv and bring the Israelies into the war, un-announced and un-welcome.
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 13:40:26 [Permalink]
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| The more I watch news shows, the less I understand. Apparently, if you ask the pundits and talking heads, we are either absolutely going to invade Iraq, most certainly not going to invade, or any of the myriad scenarios in between. |
I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 16:30:11 [Permalink]
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Just a thought: everybody wants proof of weapons in Iraq. It would not make good sense to keep them there. Iraq has billions, do you think Saddam could maybe buy a nuke from say...North Korea, then hire an Islamic Militant group (they are as readily available as pizza outlets) to deliver the bomb. North Korea needs the money, those crazy kamikaze Islamic bastards would die for a chance(pun intended), and they all hate the west (and Isreal), just a matter of time.....The proof is forth coming. ATTACK
There was no solid proof before 9/11 either....oops too late |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2003 : 20:30:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
There was no solid proof before 9/11 either....oops too late
Yeah, but the job to get the perpertrator for that seems to have been forgotten in all this. Why is Saddam painted as public enemy number 1 when Osama Bin Laden and his organisation were the ones that attacked America. Terror plots are being discovered by authorities all over the world, none have yet been linked to Iraq.
quote:
Just a thought: everybody wants proof of weapons in Iraq. It would not make good sense to keep them there. Iraq has billions, do you think Saddam could maybe buy a nuke from say...North Korea, then hire an Islamic Militant group (they are as readily available as pizza outlets) to deliver the bomb. North Korea needs the money, those crazy kamikaze Islamic bastards would die for a chance(pun intended), and they all hate the west (and Isreal), just a matter of time
America is fighting an ideal, not a nation. If these people want revenge on the west so bad they would cut out the middle man and buy the nukes themselves. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2003 : 11:16:38 [Permalink]
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Sorry to harp on about this war guys, but it is really firing me up at the moment.
Today, the Kurds are the Turk's predominant prey. This sizable but impoverished minority has been kicked about by the Turkish boot ever since 1923's Treaty of Lausanne reneged on a promise to establish a Kurdish homeland (Kurdistan) for the mountainous region's 35 million inhabitants. Kurds are now the largest stateless nationality on the planet, existing as outsiders in Armenia, Syria, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey. Strife characterizes life in Iraq, but even Kurds ruled by the Butcher of Baghdad enjoy freedoms unimaginable to the 20 million chained to the Turkish yoke.
From http://www.gettingit.com/article/380
But hang on, are not Turkey one of America's allies. What is different between the mass murder of Kurds in Turkey or Iraq.
Amnesty has reported that in Turkey thousands of people are imprisoned for political reasons, trials have failed to meet international standards for fairness, and the use of torture continues to be widespread. Many of our other allies in the coalition, such as Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, also have extremely poor records on human rights.
from http://mhintze.tripod.com/pubs/910329_seattle_times_letter_re_US_human_rights_policy.htm
There is so much that is topsy turvy in this war. Why attack one nation with WMD's, but offer oil and money to another? Why use the "liberate the people" excuse to attack when exactly the same thing is going on in a bordering country that happens to be an ally? Why Iraq, why not any of the multitude of other countries that are a threat to US security?
I'm afraid that I am becoming obsessed about this war. You are quite within your rights to tell me to shut up about it whenever you want. |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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