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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
 Posted - 02/10/2003 : 20:50:41 [Permalink]
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walt: quote:
And can that law-giver change those laws at any time he/she/it chooses to do so, on a whim? If so then I stand by the
Ayn Rand quote, and if not, then what of the omnipotence of said law-giver?
Yes the Law-Giver has the right to suspend the laws for His purposes.Logically though if this meant that the universe became a choas instead of a cosmos it wouldn't serve much of anything. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 20:55:32 [Permalink]
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Dave W.: quote:
No, we have evidence that human intelligence can design a DNA molecule, not that intelligence is required to design one.
To prove what you appear to want to prove, you'll have to provide solid evidence that life on earth was, in fact,
designed by some non-human intelligence (not that humans can imitate the trick) - which is something no ID proponent
has yet been able to do.
Your committing the fallacy of infinte regress,supposing a group of " nonhuman intelligent beings" seeded planet earth 3 billon years ago would beg the question as to how they got here .......... to paraphrase Truman "The bucks gotta stop somewhere" |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 02/10/2003 20:56:54 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2003 : 21:40:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Your committing the fallacy of infinte regress,supposing a group of " nonhuman intelligent beings" seeded planet earth 3 billon years ago would beg the question as to how they got here .......... to paraphrase Truman "The bucks gotta stop somewhere
Isn't it the same thing whenever a theist tries to say "the universe had to be designed by a designer"? Where then did the designer come from? If everything was made by a higher intelligence then what's the higher intelligence behind god? (ie. it begs the question as to how that got here)
The creationist (ie. John Sarfati's) explanations about "living out of time" is bull. Prove that it's something more than a dodge. Why couldn't things have come about through natural processes? The buck stops there. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 08:09:24 [Permalink]
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DA wrote:quote:
Your committing the fallacy of infinte regress,supposing a group of " nonhuman intelligent beings" seeded planet earth 3 billon years ago would beg the question as to how they got here ..........
No, I did not commit that fallacy, you are simply - and incorrectly - assuming that I will. I'm willing to entertain the idea of an ever-present and/or self-designed being who did the designing here on Earth (but I'd need evidence that such a being exists before I'll treat the idea as anything more than an idea). The buck can stop with him/her/it, for right now. So, you can keep begging questions all you like, I've only got one:
You are claiming that life on earth was designed. Please provide your positive evidence of that. What I've seen from you so far doesn't even come close to being evidence, it's all guesswork and analogies.
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2003 : 16:42:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
Not at all some of the earliest scientist were christians Bacon,Pascal,Boyle,Newton,Faraday,Mendel,Pasteur,and Lister to name a few.
Roger Bacon (1214-1294)
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
Isaac Newton (1643-1727)
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Gregor Mendel (1823-1884)
Louis Pastuer (1822-1895)
Joseph Lister (1829-1912)
You missed an opportunity to identify contemporary scientists who are also religious. Individuals such as Michael Behe, William Demski, Frank Tipler, Stephen Meyer, and Duane Pish. Individuals who are intelligent enough to skip all the messy peer review nonsense and go straight to writing books about their ideas.
Edited: wasn't logged in initial post presented me as a man of few words. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
| Edited by - moakley on 02/11/2003 16:53:11 |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 02:34:05 [Permalink]
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the ignored: quote:
Isn't it the same thing whenever a theist tries to say "the universe had to be designed by a designer"? Where then did
the designer come from? If everything was made by a higher intelligence then what's the higher intelligence behind god?
(ie. it begs the question as to how that got here)
First,your confusing infinte regress from the cosmological argument"every effect has a cause" and the teleogical argument "that the universe as a whole bears witness to being designed(or its called The Anthropic Principle).It is a foundational principle of science "that every effect has a cause so I don't think you against that.How the theist explains that he is not committing the fallacy of infinte regress is really quite simple,God is not an effect. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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chainsaw
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 08:21:17 [Permalink]
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DA,
So basically what you are saying is:
"I think and reason, therefore I am; and since I am, therefore god exists."
Is that what you are saying? And you belive that this is logically sound?
I must admit I don't get your connection.
Do you believe that aliens have visited our planet since several "eye witness" accounts have been published? I think that was Doomar's claim, only that he believes the aliens were agents of god. |
You can "believe" what you want, but you do have to get your science right or you'll flunk science. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 10:53:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
It is a foundational principle of science "that every effect has a cause
Perhaps you should study a bit of quantum theory. Many quantum events do not have causes, so the idea that "every event has a cause" is not a foundational principle of science. |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 13:51:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Many quantum events do not have causes, so ...
Are you asserting that - Many quantum events do not have known causes. - or
- Many quantum events are necessarily uncaused?
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2003 : 19:08:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Many quantum events do not have causes, so ...
Are you asserting that - Many quantum events do not have known causes. - or
- Many quantum events are necessarily uncaused?
Actually, the consensus seems to be that some events are necessarily uncaused. For a good discussion of this question see this site.
And here's another site, where you will find a bit more technical exposition.
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"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 02/12/2003 19:29:01 |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2003 : 04:23:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by walt fristoe
Actually, the consensus seems to be that some events are necessarily uncaused.
Thanks. I'm surprised to hear that this is a continuing consensus. I've just finished reading The Universe in a Nutshell, and would highly recommend it. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2003 : 21:55:10 [Permalink]
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chainsaw: quote:
DA,
So basically what you are saying is:
"I think and reason, therefore I am; and since I am, therefore god exists."
Is that what you are saying? And you belive that this is logically sound?
I must admit I don't get your connection.
Do you believe that aliens have visited our planet since several "eye witness" accounts have been published? I think
that was Doomar's claim, only that he believes the aliens were agents of god.
Well you got some of right."I think and reason,therfore I am greater than all the matter in the universe put together in one giagantic black holebecause,even though it tear every electron in my body apart,at least I would know and it would not". The connection is that I,as a theist,have a reason for my confidence in my being able to reason and you and the other atheist do not.For any worldview that cannot provide such a reason for their confidence in their ability to reason, seems to me very unreasonable.As far as the rest of your inquiry concerning "aliens having visited our planet" I'm beginning to think maybe especially after reading some of the post on this thread.For example,Slater: Design is not evidence of intelligence. What Earthling would say such an absurdity? Or waltfristoe's: Many quantum events do not have causes, so the idea that "every
event has a cause" is not a foundational principle of science. It's either the alien hypothesis,or I might have revise my view that at least some humans have mindless matter plus chance as the source of their reasoning abilities. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 03:14:15 [Permalink]
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DA...I often wonder how you hold on to this superstition so emphatically. Sometimes, I wonder if you may be someone playing both sides of the argument. How can a divine, omnipotent and omniscient being exist in such a world of paradoxes and contradictions? Now, let's be honest, shall we?
Does God repent, or doesn't he repent?
Is God a physical creature that wrestles with mere humans, or is he an entity that we cannot look upon?
Is he the forgiving God of the New Testament, or severe and dissappointed in his creation as in the Old Testament?
Has God given us a new covenant as Paul suggests, or are we still bound to Mosaic law as Jesus suggests?
Can the book of Genesis ever really be compattible with the real world of materialism and science?
I can't figure it out. How about you? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2003 : 15:51:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
chainsaw: quote:
DA,
So basically what you are saying is:
"I think and reason, therefore I am; and since I am, therefore god exists."
Is that what you are saying? And you belive that this is logically sound?
I must admit I don't get your connection.
Do you believe that aliens have visited our planet since several "eye witness" accounts have been published? I think
that was Doomar's claim, only that he believes the aliens were agents of god.
Well you got some of right."I think and reason,therfore I am greater than all the matter in the universe put together in one giagantic black holebecause,even though it tear every electron in my body apart,at least I would know and it would not". The connection is that I,as a theist,have a reason for my confidence in my being able to reason and you and the other atheist do not.For any worldview that cannot provide such a reason for their confidence in their ability to reason, seems to me very unreasonable.As far as the rest of your inquiry concerning "aliens having visited our planet" I'm beginning to think maybe especially after reading some of the post on this thread.For example,Slater: Design is not evidence of intelligence. What Earthling would say such an absurdity? Or waltfristoe's: Many quantum events do not have causes, so the idea that "every
event has a cause" is not a foundational principle of science. It's either the alien hypothesis,or I might have revise my view that at least some humans have mindless matter plus chance as the source of their reasoning abilities.
Oh gosh, DA, you've caught us, we're busted! I guess we'll just have to return to our home planet. These earthlings are just too smart for us! |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2003 : 00:29:32 [Permalink]
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Tim: quote:
DA...I often wonder how you hold on to this superstition so emphatically. Sometimes, I wonder if you may be someone
playing both sides of the argument. How can a divine, omnipotent and omniscient being exist in such a world of
paradoxes and contradictions? Now, let's be honest, shall we?
First,I'm not superstitious so I don't hold to any supertitions.Second,I don't play "both sides of" any "argument".Now to your third point I'm assuming by the "paradoxes" you are referring to the next set of propositions: quote:
Does God repent, or doesn't he repent?
Is God a physical creature that wrestles with mere humans, or is he an entity that we cannot look upon?
Is he the forgiving God of the New Testament, or severe and dissappointed in his creation as in the Old Testament?
Has God given us a new covenant as Paul suggests, or are we still bound to Mosaic law as Jesus suggests?
Can the book of Genesis ever really be compattible with the real world of materialism and science?
I can't figure it out. How about you?
Honestly, I can't believe you "can't figure it out". I'll have to get back to you latter though,I gotta go. |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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