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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2003 : 20:53:13 [Permalink]
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This administration seems to be a law unto itself....
But I suppose that it has been going on for years |
Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 01:16:13 [Permalink]
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Yep, welcome to the United States of Dubya...
I heard on the morning news today that the spy plane incident with North Korea has taken a turn for the Dubya-surreal. Bush has made the statement that he hopes to resolve it by diplomatic means, but that a military response cannot be ruled out. Huh?
It seems that he has become so enamoured with the military position that all foreign problems can potentially be solved with a "military response". Isn't that nice. Ask yourself one question. If the USA did not have the world's most sophisticated and powerful military, would we even be having this debate?
What do you call a country which enforces policy based on military might? Ummm...an empire perhaps? (or is it a facism?, I forget)  |
Find your own damned answers! |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 05:15:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
What do you call a country which enforces policy based on military might? Ummm...an empire perhaps? (or is it a facism?, I forget)
I call that any country with a military. For all countries, a military solution is the last chance when diplomacy fails. A military force is just another tool of the government. It just happens that, since we have the best one around, we can afford to threaten military action whenever we feel like it. |
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 06:16:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10 It just happens that, since we have the best one around, we can afford to threaten military action whenever we feel like it.
I'm not sure what you mean by that Boron. Are you saying it is admissable for the the USA to use military might to further its political ideals? If so, the USA is little more than an expansionist rogue state. The fact that it has internal democracy does not change that.
If you think the USA can "afford" such behaviour, then surely you are ignoring the growing anti-US sentiments expressed by the international community in regard to its foreign policy. |
Find your own damned answers! |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 08:09:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Orpheus
It seems that he has become so enamoured with the military position that all foreign problems can potentially be solved with a "military response".
Except the ones in oil-poor nations, like North Korea.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 09:34:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by that Boron. Are you saying it is admissable for the the USA to use military might to further its political ideals? If so, the USA is little more than an expansionist rogue state. The fact that it has internal democracy does not change that.
Boron didn't deny that. It really does depend on who that might is used. I think that the USA will continue to flex this muscle until another power rises to oppose it. If everyone keeps on backing off then the USA can keep up the bullying forever.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 09:42:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by that Boron. Are you saying it is admissable for the the USA to use military might to further its political ideals? If so, the USA is little more than an expansionist rogue state. The fact that it has internal democracy does not change that
As a 10 year, military veteran, during some pretty damned hard times for the military, I'd rather bite off my tongue than admit this is true.
But it is more and more appearing that our current regime believes in doing exactly that. We have the military might to take on anybody and win. Bush, it seems, hates to have all that good shit lying around gathering dust, so, for some reason beyond my ken, he's going to throw some of it at Iraq.
Now, don't get me wrong, here; Saddam is a dreadful fellow, and I'd love to hear he'd been found floating face-down in the Tiberis. But, as I see it, getting rid of him is not an excuse for carpet-bombing thousands of Iraqies. Or for getting a multitude of our own killed during mop-up ops.
Further, the war of aggression our idiot-without-even-a-decent-blither is proposing, will, I think, further unsettle an already unsettled regon. I think we will be an occupying force for some time to come. Worse yet, can you say, "Vietman?" I think that the occupying force will be continually sniped at -- hell, in their shoes, I'd certainly turn into a sniper and/or pipe-bomber, and a pretty nasty one at that.
And now the fool is rattling N. Korea's cage, another country with a vicious nitwit for a leader.
I see no good coming from any of this, for anybody.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 09:49:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
We have the military might to take on anybody and win.
One thing to keep in mind is that we can't take on everyone and win. In fact, you may have noticed how the Bush adninistration has come to realize this in its relationship with North Korea.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 10:08:51 [Permalink]
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Orpheus:
Boron wrote:
quote:
For all countries, a military solution is the last chance when diplomacy fails. A military force is just another tool of the government.
Yes the US has one of the best equipped military forces, yes the US rattles its saber (a lot), yes, it sometimes gets results that pure diplomacy may have - eventually. I don't see where Boron said that it was ok for the US to do this. Military action should always be the means of last resort. Unfortunately, Bushling is a bullyboy. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 11:24:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
One thing to keep in mind is that we can't take on everyone and win. In fact, you may have noticed how the Bush adninistration has come to realize this in its relationship with North Korea.
@tomic
True enough. Bush seems a little leary of a snake that might bite.
I am reminded of the spy plane the Chinese took out of international air space a couple of years ago. Bush apologized at such great length that some Chinese officials still have hickies on their rectums. O' course, while Bush was giving all these rim-jobs, the Chinese took the top secret plane apart and now know as much about it as it's designers. And then, the Chinese had the gall to send us a bill for it's return! Y'know, you've gotta admire that -- the gall, that is, not the chickenshit sucking-up.
As for fighting everybody, hell, we wouldn't have to. Control the Middle East and you control the life blood of almost the entire world. Starve other industralized countries for oil, and they'll come around quickly enough. The 'third world' countries can be slapped down, easily.
The wild card in this friendly, little game is me and thee, and the rest of the 'common' people around the world who are appaled by all this. Who knows, maybe ........
I believe it was Abe Lincoln who once said, "The Lord must have loved the common people, 'cause he made so many of them."
Well, that might look good in print, but if you think someone's common, you just tell him so and watch how fast he smacks you right in the mouth! -- Thanks to Brother Dave Gardner for that one.
Incidently, The late A. Hitler pretty much laid out a blueprint for conquest. I think that if he hadn't gotton entirly stupid, he just might have pulled it off. Chilling that we almost seem to be beginning those footsteps; repress those citizens you can't convince, then pick off the smaller nations, one by one. After Iraq, will there be another?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Mespo_man
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 11:28:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
This story reports that the US is spying on UN security council members. This includes wiretaps.
So when does Bush, Ashcroft and the rest of the Hitler Youth start goosestepping?
Well, Dubya inherited all that wiretap gear from Clinton, who got it form Bush Sr, who got it from Reagan, who got it from Carter, who got it from Ford, who got it from, Nixon, who got it from Johnson, who got it from Kennedy, who got it from Eisenhower.
And all the "Spook" guys in US intelligence have to compete for space with Russian, French, English, Israeli and German intelligence services. If you ask for telephone repair in New York, God knows who's going to show up. 
(:raig |
Rape, Pillage, THEN Burn. [Mongolian Hoards Handbook] |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 16:05:08 [Permalink]
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I can certainly empathize with the pessimism I read in Filthy's posts, and I can't help but sympathize with the view that the Bushites are trying to play out a script that's familiar to any student of the 1923-1945 period, but:
Buck up a bit, Unwashed One. There's one characteristic common to people who thought that they were appointed by God to rule, and smart enough to boss the world as they knew it:
They weren't.  |
"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 18:40:40 [Permalink]
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| Orpheus, I am not saying our bullying is right, just that it happens and is likely to continue. @tomic and Trish summed up my position pretty well. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2003 : 19:06:21 [Permalink]
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ktesibios my friend, I am something of a student of that time period, although far from a scholor. My father served in Europe and I had an uncle who died on the beach at Palau, if I've spelled that right. My family has a history of being cannon fodder, including myself.
So, being something of a busted-up history freak, I see too many similarities between what went down then and what's happening now. And it scares hell out of me. Not for myself, mind you. I'm old and can croak tomorrow with no regrets, but, I have grandchildren. I want for them a lot better life than I've had. If our country continues on the course I see it taking, they won't get it.
On a brighter note, my beautiful Canebrake Rattlesnake, who had a really bad brumation and was way under weight, has fed. I think she'll be ok if I can get a little meat in and on her. 
See? I ain't pessimistic about everything.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Orpheus
Skeptic Friend
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2003 : 03:21:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
Orpheus, I am not saying our bullying is right, just that it happens and is likely to continue. @tomic and Trish summed up my position pretty well.
Thanks for clearing that up. I just wanted to know what your exact position was.
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Further, the war of aggression our idiot-without-even-a-decent-blither is proposing, will, I think, further unsettle an already unsettled regon. I think we will be an occupying force for some time to come. Worse yet, can you say, "Vietman?" I think that the occupying force will be continually sniped at -- hell, in their shoes, I'd certainly turn into a sniper and/or pipe-bomber, and a pretty nasty one at that.
I could not agree more filthy. It seems that the Bush administration just don't get it. They seem to forget that being a country of the "wealthy millions", many of the "hungry billions" are going to view the USA with suspicion and sometimes, hatred (not surprising if you can say "sweat-shop"). So, instead of making this planet more friendly by reaching out to the downtrodden, Bush wants to bomb them even further back into the stone-age. Some of the other threads in this forum I think, have nailed down the real reason for Dubya's stance. American expansionism, oil-based profit, and the increase of big government. Bummer for all the other less powerful and wealthy nations of the world.
And another thing, (and I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me here filthy), I am getting so sick of the ease with which politicians send young men do be maimed, killed or do similar things to other young men. The fact that many of them go willingly into such hell is no excuse. There used to be a time when older, wiser people looked out for the younger amongst them... |
Find your own damned answers! |
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