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rubenesque68
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2001 : 00:37:13
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"Speaking In Tongues" and "Dancing In The Spirit"
What are your theories? Is this a real phenom. or just hype? At a recent appearance at our Freethought group, Dan Barker gave his "armchair" theory stating that as a former x-tian he maintains that this is a real experience and that he believes there is a chemical reaction in the brain, real changes physically. But that it's not a "religious" experience, just a physical one where people are possibly using a part of their brain that long ago was abandoned. What do you all think?
When I first witnessed this I thought that it was akin to orgasm.....But for the love of god????
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comradebillyboy
Skeptic Friend
USA
188 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2001 : 01:36:07 [Permalink]
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If, when I was a Catholic, I had as much fun as these serpent handlers and holy rollers, I would probably stayed with holy mother, the church just for the entertainment. They look like they are peaking on acid. Benny Hinn is sooooooooo stoned.
Alternativly, perhaps these fundis are delusional and mentally defective, but more-or-less able to function in society.
A lot of them do look very aroused. They seem to be in an altered state. It looks like it could be a lot of fun; if only the price werent so high-like winston smith in 1984, finally coming to love big brother.
comrade billyboy |
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Deborah
Skeptic Friend
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 02:38:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Speaking In Tongues" and "Dancing In The Spirit"
What are your theories? Is this a real phenom. or just hype?
I witnessed this at a church in Florida. I thought I was just tagging along with my best friend to listen to some person speak about relationships or some other nonsense, but what I got instead was total entertainment! I'm glad that I sat in the back because I was nearly rolling on the floor and it wasn't because I was filled with the holy spirit!
I don't doubt for a moment that people experience real physiological responses when they induce themselves into this state. I associate this with something along the lines of chanting or meditation. I do have problems with anyone recognizing this as a language, heavenly or otherwise.
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 04:40:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
A lot of them do look very aroused. They seem to be in an altered state. It looks like it could be a lot of fun; if only the price werent so high-like winston smith in 1984, finally coming to love big brother.
comrade billyboy
About 10 years, I went to visit something called the Church on the Rock in Carrollton, Texas. This is a big-time "non-denominational" holy-roller operation. Benny Hinn has played the place, and he doesn't come cheap. They had a stage instead of an altar and a rock band to go with the choir. The preacher had about 14 assistants, all with goofy haircuts and loud suits of one kind or another. When they sang, the lyrics were projected onto a big screen behind the stage with, so help me, a bouncing white ball so you could follow along. They danced and sang and whooped it up in aisle as the show, er, service, started. After a few minutes of this, the atmosphere was supercharged, but I had no inkling of the real nature of that spark until the head preacher got everyone calmed down and asked visitors to raise their hands. I complied, and was immediately surrounded. People began pawing me, shaking my hand and clapping me on the shoulder. An attractive young woman separated herself from the group, seized me, and hugged me so hard (forgive me if I'm over the line, but it's evidence) that I could feel her nipples. The intensity and passion of that stranger's embrace were something I had never before experienced in a public place, let alone in a church. I understood then, in no uncertain terms, that the atmosphere and the electricity and the excitement were sexual in nature. I wondered briefly if an orgy was about to ensue, but we were treated instead to a rousing sermon on the evils of liberalism.
It's easy to understand: these people are normally quite repressed in daily life, and here they suddenly have a license from God to cut loose. The attraction must be nearly irresistable.
Edited by - Piltdown on 07/15/2001 04:48:51
Edited by - Piltdown on 07/15/2001 04:52:05
Edited by - Piltdown on 07/15/2001 05:07:20 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 13:52:35 [Permalink]
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Speaking In Tongues" and "Dancing In The Spirit" What are your theories? Is this a real phenom. or just hype. Dan Barker gave his "armchair" theory stating that as a former x-tian he maintains that this is a real experience and that he believes there is a chemical reaction in the brain, real changes physically.
It just so happens that this is one of the very things that I've been researching all these years in my comparative mythology studies.
It is a very real phenomenon and you can find it all over the world. Here's a partial list of these "tongue speakers."
In Turkey, Moslem (Whirling) Dervishes.
Indonesia, Moslem fundamentalists.
New England, Shakers and Quakers (hence the unflattering names)
Germany, Franciscan Nuns (take special note of the music of Hildegard Von Bingen circa 1179)
Nepal, the monks of Brama.
Northern India and Laos, Buddhist monks.
Island of Sakhalin and the Kamchatka Peninsula, shaman of "bear"
Australian, Aborigine shaman of "Father"
Samoa, priestesses of Rono (Lono) and Laka.
Pacific North West, Native American shaman of "raven"
South West, Native American shaman of "coyote"
Haiti, priestesses of Ba-Ba-Loo (no, not Ricky Recardo, but that is who he was singing about)
And we cannot forget the most famous "Speaker in Tongues" of all time The Pythoness of the Oracle at Delphi.
Most of these instances include the use of a mild hallucinogenic. Kava, incense, peyote, even the steam from a volcanic vent (Delphi).
They ALL include the constant repetition of a phrase -- ohm, praise Jesus, or a short chant.
It would appear to have a great deal to do with recent work of Dr James Austin and Dr Michael J. Baime and their correlation between "abnormal" brain function and religious experience.
I would be willing to bet (although I lack the qualifications to even speculate on the subject--not like I ever let a little thing like that stop me) that the incessant repetition causes a "short circuit", so to speak, in the Temporal lobe of the brain which affects the speech and motor centers in a quasi-epileptic fashion.
Admittedly the only time that I have actually seen the phenomena was on TV when a pair of polyester be-suited "ministers" were having a tongues duet. And they were obvious frauds.
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 14:27:37 [Permalink]
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I believe a kind of mass hysteria happens at these events. There is a method these evangelists employ for working the crowed into a willingness to do things they wouldn't otherwise dream of doing in public. Benny Hinn is a master of the form. He is a snake oil salesman performing to a crowed that already believes in the potion.
I think there is another force at work here as well. It is the fear of failure.
If the spirit doesn't come into your heart and it came into all these other peoples hearts then there must be something wrong with you. The pressure is on. If it takes writhing on the floor spouting nonsense to be one with the rest of the believers, so be it.
Im not necessarily suggesting that they are faking it, only that the idea of failing to live up to the expectation of the evening could make a person want to go the extra mile to keep from feeling like a failure. I couldn't tell you how many in the audience feels the need to perform in this manner, but I can tell you that I know of cases where this occurred. Whether it was speaking in tongues, being healed or what have you, failure to receive god in front of an audience that expects it of you can be a strong motivater.
Furthermore, speaking in tongues can be learned. My girlfriend, while working undercover as a fundamentalist Christian to get inside of the Operation Rescue organization learned how to speak in tongues. She was taught this trick by the head of Northern California Operation Rescue so she would fit in with the church she was attending.She was taught by a beleiver. Speaking in tongues at that church was a right of passage.
She says some Christians feel that speaking in tongues is a persons inability to express in normal language the feeling of God coming into their heart. Others believe it is the language of the angels. There are a few Christians out there who believe they can translate.
The psychological term for speaking in tongues is glossalia. Different churches have different dialects of the babble. All things considered, this is not too surprising.
In any case I know that sometimes it is faked since it can be taught. At other times, it just might seem like the thing to do.
The Evil Skeptic |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2001 : 16:03:31 [Permalink]
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Perhaps they have all hypnotized themselves.
ljbrs
Perfection Is a State of Growth... |
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rubenesque68
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 00:10:39 [Permalink]
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We attended one of my hubbies parents "sings" at their church when my middle daughter was 5. As soon as she saw the people wriggling on the floor and babbling some foreign language she yelled, "Mommy, those people are hurt, we need to call the ambulance! They need help!" She became so upset I took her screaming from the church home. We never went back. Something that instills this much fear and terror into little children can't be good! She still says to this day that she does not want to ever go back to G'pa and G'ma's church!
From what I understand unless someone is interpreting the "speaking in tongues" it is not considered valid. Maybe this applies only to this particular church or off branch....I found the "language", and I use the word loosely, to be much like that spoken by Reagan in "The Exorcist". Hehehe.
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Greg
Skeptic Friend
USA
281 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 11:27:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Germany, Franciscan Nuns (take special note of the music of Hildegard Von Bingen circa 1179)
I have read that the Ergot fungus is also implicated in some of the spiritual/mystical experiences in Europe during the Middle Ages and later. The Ergot fungus produces two powerful hallucenigens; Lysergic Acid (reagent used to produce LSD), and Ergotamine.
Personally, I love the music of Hildegard Von Bingen in particular and chant in general. On the other hand, I like most other psychedelic music as well.
Greg.
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 17:27:43 [Permalink]
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http://198.182.127.234/~weirdcrap//tilton/
Here's a few sound samples, including speaking-in-tongue, from the Revhead Robert Tilton.
My favorite has to be..."Isn't that something?". What a circus!
I've yet to check out the longer MPEG bits.
Religion is a dopiate for the masses.
Edited by - randy on 07/16/2001 17:31:35 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 19:02:25 [Permalink]
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From what I understand unless someone is interpreting the "speaking in tongues" it is not considered valid. Maybe this applies only to this particular church or off branch
I am an out spoken exponent of the theory that Christianity was cobbled together out of bits and pieces of existing religions probably by a Roman committee. I'm sure you already know this since I do most of my exponential out speaking here. The whole Christian speaking in tongues is a direct lift from the Apolloian speaking in hidden tongues. Just another piece of dead meat for the ecclesiastical Frankenstein monster.
Apollo the god of the Sun slew the great Earth snake Python who lived in a cave called the World's Womb at Delphi in northern Greece.
Mythologically speaking this serpent is extremely important. It's the same snake that is twisting up Hermes staff. The same that wraps itself around the world tree in the Akkadian myth of Ningizzida, and brings the waters of life from the Moon. And it's a personal friend of Eve. The mythology from Spain to India was all interconnected.
Apollo slaying it is a representation of the warrior dominated culture supplanting the agricultural one––I mentioned this condition in the Levant previously when talking about the lack of a goddess figure in the Jewish myths.
Anyway in celebration of this event (in some versions, in penance for it) Apollo set up one of his priestesses at Delphi and called her the Pythoness.
So what you did, if you needed to know what the Fates had in store for you was first you made a very, very, generous gift to the Oracle, then you could ask one single question. The Pythoness would stand over "The Womb of the World"- a volcanic vent right in the middle of the temple. She would chant and breath in the fumes. After a bit she would start to dance around and call out in gibberish. A priest would listen carefully and write down an obscure interpretation- but in cryptic verse. You would take this note and leave. Down in the town of Delphi were many support business. There were restaurants and B&B's and every thing a traveler needed. Including people who would reinterpret the strange verse into everyday Greek. For a price of course.
This business lasted for well over a thousand years.
It was such a money making proposition that when the Christians took over they decided to keep it. But it was a disaster from the start.
First all their nuns had been Vestal Virgins and were not interested in speaking in tongues. They wanted to spend their labors promoting the new mother goddess. For an idea of their success note the percent of medieval cathedrals that were dedicated to the Virgin Mother*
Second, while it was one thing to have the Pythoness dancing around like Isadora Duncan in an open air amphitheater it is quite something else to have a crowd doing this in a small enclosed space. As you already noted it terrifies small children. It also makes fathers say "Jesus smesus, these guys are nuts! I'm getting my family the hell out of here!" Very bad for business--you don't put drachmas in the collection plate while you are running for the door.
Third, it took power away from the government appointed priest. Any A-hole would interpret these messages from god instead of getting the word solely through the priest. Since you can't actually predict the future--"god" would usually get it wrong.
So the church cut their losses and dumped this nonsense.
They declared that the gift of tongues only existed during the days of the Apostles and ended with them. Reading between the lines they were saying that it was so mystic as to border on Gnosticism, and don't go there-- or else.
And nobody did till the Black Death hit and mysticism became the order of the day, particularly amongst the Franciscans. After it passed they went back to life as normal.
Then hundreds of years later small Protestant sects (cults?) needed something theatrical to pull the crowds in from their larger competitors. Rummaging around in Christianity's basement they found "speaking in tongues" in an old (red) shoe box with a couple of relics of Saint Médard (bishop of Tournai in Picardy, invoked against toothache and known as "the Great Pisser" (honest)) dusted it off and started making money with it again.
The terrifying of sweet little girls was just an added bonus.
*100%
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The brain that was stolen from my laboratory was a criminal brain. Only evil will come from it. |
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sega
Skeptic Friend
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 19:06:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have read that the Ergot fungus is also implicated in some of the spiritual/mystical experiences in Europe during the Middle Ages and later.
Greg.
It is also theorised that Ergot poisoning is responsible for many incidences of witch trials and ritual murders in Europe.
Hallucinations are the source of many religious experiences. Whether they were caused by chemicals, insanity, blunt trauma or whatever is really moot, the important thing is that Science has an answer for this.
I once beleived there was something to religion, but I am forced to beleive the word Prophet is a synonym for "Nuts".
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 21:14:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
I once beleived there was something to religion, but I am forced to beleive the word Prophet is a synonym for "Nuts".
Except for the cases where the prophets are merely liars!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Espritch
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2001 : 23:39:54 [Permalink]
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I suspect there is a strong link between religion, particularly the visceral kind practiced by the holy rollers, and sex. John Stienbeck noted this relationship in "The Grapes of Wrath". He has a character in the book who was a former preacher. He talks about how often after revival meetings, he would find himself out in the tall grass with some lady who had just been filled up with the holy spirit.
Then of course there are such classic examples as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker.
I also think of a black Holy Roller preacher I know who would where cologne so strong it would make your eyes sting. It might make an interesting topic of study for an anthropologist.
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 12:04:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
John Stienbeck noted this relationship in "The Grapes of Wrath". He has a character in the book who was a former preacher. He talks about how often after revival meetings, he would find himself out in the tall grass with some lady who had just been filled up with the holy spirit
Was that before or after they met out in the tall grass? 
"When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not." -Master Yoda |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2001 : 12:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I suspect there is a strong link between religion, particularly the visceral kind practiced by the holy rollers, and sex. John Stienbeck noted this relationship in "The Grapes of Wrath". He has a character in the book who was a former preacher. He talks about how often after revival meetings, he would find himself out in the tall grass with some lady who had just been filled up with the holy spirit.
Then of course there are such classic examples as Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker.
I also think of a black Holy Roller preacher I know who would where cologne so strong it would make your eyes sting. It might make an interesting topic of study for an anthropologist.
Could be a lot of one-liners here...
He'd do some of his own fillin'! Feel the power of the Lawd! :-)
Oh, it's a lot about sex, when you analyse at it, at least all of the religious social dogma required. Xtian wives submissive to their husbands, biblical insults to women. Gawd curses women with birthing pains to punish their sinful ways. The laughable creation story...Adam and Eve. All up to today with rites and rituals, i.e....the white wedding gown - if no man's pee-pee has entered her pee-pee then she is pure.
Old biblical nonsense of women who wore make-up were whores. Holy consumation only; no Groucho Marx's masks can be worn during sex. Snake handlers,....you know what Freud said about snakes. :-D
This and so much more is biologically driven. Religion just mis-defines, as usual, what the driving force is. No pun intended. |
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