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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
 Posted - 04/14/2003 : 23:40:46
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US Blamed for Failure to Stop Sacking of Museum
Good to see they got their priorities right.........
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 14:38:51 [Permalink]
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This is a war crime. And today, they have allowed the same thing to happen to the Iraqi National Library.
The whole problem of looting could have been stopped so easily! My country has a lot to answer for. |
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 15:18:17 [Permalink]
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Did anyone catch that the one building US troops did protect was the Oil Ministry? No hospitals, no food supplies, no museums...just the Oil Ministry. If anyone dares to look me in the eye and say this wasn't all for oil I will call them an idiot or a liar.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 15:19:33 [Permalink]
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| Ashamed. |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 18:02:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
If anyone dares to look me in the eye and say this wasn't all for oil I will call them an idiot or a liar.
I'm sad to say that this forum has become little more than a frenzy of reactionary and unreasoned ranting, with the worst offender being you, @tomic.
Imagine, the administrator of a skeptic's site stating numerous times that he doesn't care what your arguments are, he's already decided you're wrong! (This thread isn't the first time you've indicated this).
And yes, the loss of the museum relics is a horrible tragedy and shame.
I can't help but think, though, that you all would be here denouncing the soldiers for murder had they killed a bunch of unarmed looters...
No, let's not interfere when a madman is killing and torturing his people, that'd be a war crime! But hell's bells, it's a war crime not to interfere with looting! |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 18:30:30 [Permalink]
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Unreasoned ranting? I think the facts speak for themselves. The protection of the Oil Ministry is only one part of the case that this is about oil. Shooting to kill looters would indded be a crime as well now that you mention it even though you are just trying to discredit me you discredit yourself by indicating you think theft itself is a capital crime. The looting would have been deterred if troops had for one had a plan to stop looting in advance and two if there was any priority beyond protecting oil production.
Frankly, your post seemed to be a rant if you ask me and you didn't even address the quote you used. You just took a moment to attack me which is par for the course among the pro-war crowd.
@tomic |
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Franc28
New Member
29 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 19:24:07 [Permalink]
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I don't mean to be contrarian, but accusing an entire country of something is a near-impossibility. It's nonsensical wording at best.
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Fireballn
Skeptic Friend
Canada
179 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 19:45:04 [Permalink]
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| That was well put TD. |
If i were the supreme being, I wouldn't have messed around with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers 8 o'clock day one!
-Time Bandits- |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2003 : 23:03:19 [Permalink]
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| Ummm.., well yeah, part of the responsibility has to be ours, cuz we did take over the city. Still it bothers me to excuse, or overlook, the looter's burden. All good iraqi muslims, would bet. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2003 : 04:52:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Did anyone catch that the one building US troops did protect was the Oil Ministry? No hospitals, no food supplies, no museums...just the Oil Ministry.
Strong accusations...Sources? Please...
I'll be the first to admit that I was against starting this war from the beginning. I'm still not happy with the original meandering lines of reason offered up by the administration. Mostly, though, I do not feel that the US should act as police force, judge and jury, and executioner for what the administration perceives to be threats to world stability, (economic interests not withstanding). We cannot arbitrarily decide which despotic regime is due for forced change, while equally apalling regimes may be treated as staunch allies.
Being in control of the world's most powerful military and economic powers is not a liscense for this type of adventurism. To the contrary, being the biggest kid on the block carries with it an added burden of responsibility.
However, when the bombs started falling, the administration set us on a path that rightfully belongs to the United Nations. If the UN chose not to enforce it's own resolutions in Iraq, as well as other nations, this does not make the actions of the US and Brittain admirable. We are no more above the rule of international law than is Iraq or Israel.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bush and company set us down a path that once started cannot be easily reversed. I feel that the repurcusions of not completing this action far outweigh the consequences we may already face. At this moment, I think that we should be working toward the quick end to hostilities, and a well planned transition to an Iraqi Democratic Republic, that is both stable and benevolent.
Furthermore, the US needs to allow the UN in as soon as possible, gradually passing on the reins of nation building. Any other scenario will seriously undermine any sense of credibility that the US has left.
That said, I reserve my right to criticize the administration at any point I choose. The voice of dissent may be the only check we have to an ever growing attack on our Constitutional rights, and a foriegn policy agenda that makes 'Sybil' look sane.
Now, should US troops have protected this museum? I don't know. I wasn't there, nor do I have enough information to make that decision. I can say that efforts need to be taken to protect the hospitals and public works projects before we can think about protecting public trusts not essential to the health and physical well being of the Iraqi people. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2003 : 07:25:33 [Permalink]
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Excellent, Tim. You've said it far better than I could.
However, I think that preserving the oil fields and ministry, and establishing a firm presence in the region has taken presedence over the benefit of the Iraqi people from the first. In due course, we shall see if I am wrong.
And now, is it off to Syria, hiegh-ho? To find them WDMs, hiegh-ho?
One really good thing to come out of this mess is the capture of Abu Abbas. But even that doesn't make this war right and proper.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/16/2003 07:28:27 |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2003 : 08:37:32 [Permalink]
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"Being in control of the world's most powerful military and economic powers is not a liscense for this type of adventurism. To the contrary, being the biggest kid on the block carries with it an added burden of responsibility."
Well, that is the crux of the debate, isn't it Tim? Being the only "Superpower" on the planet, atm, does infer a sort of 'license,' doesn't it? Was and remain against the Iraq invasion, for the same reasons. Thou have to admit, think the world and perhaps even the Iraqi people, will be better off without Saddam. One of the oldest laws of history, and the basis for such license is, Might makes Right. Butt if our nation wants to stand for international law and due process, we're sure setting a poor example, following in the footsteps of every major power in human history. Why should we be any different?
Evolution works slowly, guess it's a little wishful to hope humankind has advanced beyond the 'rule of the sword.' Certainly want my country to stand for justice and the rule of law. Under the current leadership however, think the chances are slim and none. Even if we're doing the "right thing," we are doing it by unminning and outside the existing community of nations, the imperfect UN as well as NATO. Another American invention, btw. Confess to a guilty plesaure of late, with all this talk about PNAC, imperalism, and such.
Been entertaining this thought. Dubya's let the cat out of the bag, now. We are the only 'superpower,' isn't the notion of using our might to 'write history' the way that we think it should be written, a bit seductive? There is weight to the arguement, that it is foolishness to allow our known foes, the first blow, when WMDs are in play. Don't like the way Islam has revealed itself, so perhaps the cycle of history has returned to a time of crusades. If so, let's win it this time with no doubt about it. A look about this ol' mud ball we infect, there are scores of opprotunities for glory to be won and things to be set to rights. Humanity is overdue for a deep culling anyway, might as well enjoy it. Huh? It's good to be King. |
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gezzam
SFN Regular
Australia
751 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2003 : 07:18:23 [Permalink]
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I suppose that what most people who are anti war are worried about is the precedent set by the Bush hawks. These are: -
- Pre-emptive war - The threat of terrorism has given the U.S. Government an excuse to launch a war on those she feels might threaten her. Syria may be next as well as others on Bush's "Axis of Evil". This new pre-emption doctrine requires clear heads. In my humble opinion, this Administration may be a little gung-ho. They have already and if left alone will burn many diplomatic bridges that they may be required in the future.
- Demise of the U.N. - Attempting to keep world peace is a near impossible job, although the U.N. has flaws, it remains the best way to settle disputes, the U.S. and her allies have shown scant regard for the U.N. and it will be character building to see if it can again become relevant. The world needs law and order, not a self proclaimed sheriff with too many fingers in too many pies.
- Nation Building - The U.S and associated must finish what they started. Things have not been finished in Afghanistan and the selected government is only just holding power in the capital. Warlords that were once allies of the US are now turning against those currently in power. If the U.S. fails here, the scepticism currently felt in the Arab world will be justified and we will be back where it all started, possibly with another massive terrorist attack on U.S. shores.
We are in a critical time, one good thing about this war was the ousting of Saddam, I just hope America keeps its promise to try and install a true democracy in Iraq.
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Mistakes are a part of being human. Appreciate your mistakes for what they are: precious life lessons that can only be learned the hard way. Unless it's a fatal mistake, which, at least, others can learn from.
Al Franken |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2003 : 23:55:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
If anyone dares to look me in the eye and say this wasn't all for oil I will call them an idiot or a liar.
@tomic
Oh @, you would call me a liar?
And I am against the war too. But I am skeptical that it's about oil. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2003 : 00:00:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim
quote:
Did anyone catch that the one building US troops did protect was the Oil Ministry? No hospitals, no food supplies, no museums...just the Oil Ministry.
Strong accusations...Sources? Please...
I'll be the first to admit that I was against starting this war from the beginning. I'm still not happy with the original meandering lines of reason offered up by the administration. Mostly, though, I do not feel that the US should act as police force, judge and jury, and executioner for what the administration perceives to be threats to world stability, (economic interests not withstanding). We cannot arbitrarily decide which despotic regime is due for forced change, while equally apalling regimes may be treated as staunch allies.
Being in control of the world's most powerful military and economic powers is not a liscense for this type of adventurism. To the contrary, being the biggest kid on the block carries with it an added burden of responsibility.
However, when the bombs started falling, the administration set us on a path that rightfully belongs to the United Nations. If the UN chose not to enforce it's own resolutions in Iraq, as well as other nations, this does not make the actions of the US and Brittain admirable. We are no more above the rule of international law than is Iraq or Israel.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bush and company set us down a path that once started cannot be easily reversed. I feel that the repurcusions of not completing this action far outweigh the consequences we may already face. At this moment, I think that we should be working toward the quick end to hostilities, and a well planned transition to an Iraqi Democratic Republic, that is both stable and benevolent.
Furthermore, the US needs to allow the UN in as soon as possible, gradually passing on the reins of nation building. Any other scenario will seriously undermine any sense of credibility that the US has left.
That said, I reserve my right to criticize the administration at any point I choose. The voice of dissent may be the only check we have to an ever growing attack on our Constitutional rights, and a foriegn policy agenda that makes 'Sybil' look sane.
Now, should US troops have protected this museum? I don't know. I wasn't there, nor do I have enough information to make that decision. I can say that efforts need to be taken to protect the hospitals and public works projects before we can think about protecting public trusts not essential to the health and physical well being of the Iraqi people.
Tim. WOW! You speak so well. I so much agree with most of what you say, think you for putting it into the words that I cannot find. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2003 : 00:17:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by gezzam
We are in a critical time, one good thing about this war was the ousting of Saddam, I just hope America keeps its promise to try and install a true democracy in Iraq.
Don't know if you know of a late night talk show host/comedian we have here on TV named Jay Leno but last night he told a joke, saying we (USA) better be careful who we put over there (Iraq) because in 5-10 years we might have to fight them again.
But seriously...... I've always thought those people there in the Middle East, Jews and all, are crazy. I don't understand what all the tension is about...besides oil! They all look alike to me. Well, execpt for the dresses and head gear the Arab men wear!
Anyway, the point is, I don't think whoever ends up being in charge will stop the disagreements. Look what happened to Sadat when he tried to make peace.
They are crazy, I tell you! |
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