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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2003 : 01:16:08 [Permalink]
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Thank you for that. I was beginning to think that the world was populated with those that thought that those that disagree with them are idiots, and those that wish to uphold American ideals are Anti-American.
Having said that, this war and this president are the clearest support of everything I've said about U.S. policy. This is clearly a crime against not only the people of Iraq, but all of humanity.
quote:
Originally posted by Garrette
Gorgo, as much as I like debating with you (and I truly do) I haven't the time to get into the big picture of the illegality, but you know, of course, that I disagree, yes?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 05/23/2003 04:05:10 |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2003 : 20:05:20 [Permalink]
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No prob, Gorgo. You don't assume I'm an ultra right wing gunslinger and baby-eater, and I won't assume you're Trotsky's best friend....Deal? (No smilies, but that was an attempt at levity...)
Cuneiform, no time to go back and review it, but in response to your assertion that I contradicted myself some time back, you're right. Sorry. Don't know if I'll have time to sort it out, but perhaps.
Oh, and Gorgo, for an earlier question, you should question my qualifications regarding foreign policy in exactly the same manner and degree as you question everyone's on this board. I don't recall you raising the issue about cuneiform, though. |
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2003 : 02:00:49 [Permalink]
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Well, no offense to Cuneiform, but I don't even remember what he or she said. I don't care about some museum. I mean it's not a good thing to have a museum destroyed, but it pales in comparison to losing one life. If it's for a greater good, then if a museum has to be destroyed, big deal. I understand that it might have been extremely dangerous to protect the museum. However, if it is a crime to sack a museum, then the U.S. is responsible for that crime, as it illegally created the situation. There seems to have been no greater purpose here.
If you're saying that you're a guy that has read some things and has an opinion like me and everyone else, that's fine. If you're saying you're some kind of expert, then I'd like to at least know why you'd think that. We're all just sort of anonymous to one another so I take whatever anyone here (including myself) says with a grain of salt until I can check something out anyway. But if you claim to be an expert, then I'd like to know what makes you an expert so I can check out what you say based on that information. That's not some kind of challenge, just a question. If you're just a guy who happens to be on the scene with an opinion, then that's fine. Of course, you could be just a guy sitting in a library in Queens, NY laughing your ass off, I don't know nor care. It doesn't really affect my life all that much. It's just a question.
quote:
Oh, and Gorgo, for an earlier question, you should question my qualifications regarding foreign policy in exactly the same manner and degree as you question everyone's on this board. I don't recall you raising the issue about cuneiform, though.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2003 : 23:44:15 [Permalink]
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Nope, not an expert. Just a guy whose opinions are never wrong.
----
More seriously, in reference to the looting of the museum being the US's responsibility because it "created the situation," are you suggesting that there is never a time when a lesser crime can be accepted or committed in the act of preventing a greater crime? In most US states, there is such a provision within criminal statutes.
I'm not on the WMD teams, so I can't really speak to those (though I do get some almost-insider type info); I admit the failure to find/produce any such weapons is an embarrassment. A few ways to interpret it, though:
1) They legitimately haven't been found but exist, either hidden in Iraq or spirited away
2) They never existed and the US knew it, using the allegation as a pretense for attack
3) They never existed and the US legitimately believed otherwise due to intelligence sources which are always imperfect; hence, their motives cannot be considered criminal on these grounds.
Am I right in assuming you prefer interpretation #2? I'm not ready to accept that yet.
As far as other crimes, let me talk to you about the impact of the sanctions that you say have devastated the country.
ORHA (the group at first led by Jay Garner, now by Paul Bremer, and whose name is sort of changing to the Coalition Provisional Authority) is housed in one of the several Presidential Palaces. This particular palace, we call The Big Head Palace because of the four monumental busts of Saddam in complete moghul glory atop it. It is shaped in a shallow horseshoe that is, at a guess, 200 meters to 250 meters long.
Yesterday, I spent a long time with four gentlemen of Baghdad representing the alumni of the local Jesuit College (which is in actuality a high school, in US terms). One of them has is a respected civil engineer here with his own contracting/construction firm. I took these four men into the palace; usually when I escort Iraqis into the palace, it is their first time to see it, as it was off limits to all not within Saddam's inner circle. But this one man was an exception. He told me of how he had been here in 1992.
He told me something I didn't know. The palace in it's current configuration did not exist in 1992; only the central section existed, being about one half the current total of the building, perhaps less.
This man's company was hired to build on the south extension (another company had the north extension). Italian marble, crystal chandeliers, ceiling sculptures and paintings. 20 foot ceilings in the halls, 50 foot (estimated) in the large rooms.
It took 6 months to lay the base of it and 5 years to finish the interior. So it was complete in 1997. When did the sanctions start? Where did this money come from?
Another of the gentlemen is one of only 4 PhDs in Fire Safety Engineering in Iraq. He told me about having to talk to his 3 boys on April 10th. For years, he told his boys that Saddam was good; for years, the boys--along with all other schoolchildren--recited in school the odes to Saddam, usually dozens of times a day. Because the headmasters are nearly all Ba'athists, parents feared to tell their children the truth in case the children repeated what was said to the headmaster--in all innocence--and the parents would then be killed.
This man told me of his heart breaking when he told his boys the truth about Saddam. One son asked "Is he a BAD man?" Yes. "Then why didn't you tell us before?" They were angry at the man, and confused, because all they had known was that their parents and all of society praised Saddam. In the space of days, that changed.
We made our first attempt at starting schools here on May 3rd. About 30% of schools opened, but none of which I know or have had reported to me taught a single class on that day or for at least 3 days after. They didn't know how. Everything regarding curriculum came from the National Ministry of Education. The history books are full of quotations and 'wise sayings' of Saddam. Quotations like "Ask not what your fellow Iraqis can do for you; ask what you can do for your fellow Iraqis." I'm not making that up. Teachers could not decide what to teach because for 30 years they had never decided on their own. Teachers could not give tests because they had never created tests on their own. The final exam always comes from the National Ministry. They were paralyzed with autonomy, and a remaining fear that Saddam might not really be gone.
This morning, I have arranged for some troops to go, accompanied with some MPs, to pick up a man who came here yesterday. The man's niece is in secondary school but has not gone in several days because she is afraid. For years, headmasters have extorted money from families to award passing grades at the year end exams. For years, families have complied. Some families are now resisting, including this man's and his niece's. But this headmaster is at it again. He has threatened the girl. So the MPs will conduct an investigation and probably arrest the headmaster, instructing the teachers to choose someone among themselves to replace him temporarily until the new Minister of Education can decide on a permanent replacement.
Children, usually females to age 14 or 15, are being kidnapped off the street; it's not epidemic--I know of few confirmed cases and lots of unsubstantiated rumors--but it happens. There are three categories of kidnapping.
1) Islamic fundamentalists with anger at girls for wearing school dresses without veils in front of the coalition forces.
2) Normal Iraqis who are exacting revenge against former Ba'athists.
3) Common criminals who want a ransom or who deal in human trade.
What level rises to the point where it is acceptable to commit unpleasant acts to end an evil? Does that point exist?
Gotta go. I'm already timed out of this session, but the person behind me is being nice; I'll need to copy this, sign back on, and paste it in.
Take care |
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 03:31:28 [Permalink]
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The point of the war was not that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. That was what the sanctions and the inspectors were for presumably. The point of the war - in order to make it legal - was that Iraq was an immediate threat to the United States of America. Perhaps we'll discover that was true someday. I haven't given up. I think Sean Hannity last night said he hopes that proof is never found. I hope so too, but George Bush needs to come up with some kind of evidence or he is making you an accomplice to his incredible crimes.
We're also finding out, that yes, governments waste money. Wealthy people waste money. Governments have corruption. The sanctions were genocidal. Half our income tax goes to make defense contractors wealthy while veterans benefits are cut. We're finding out that the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein through his worst crimes. Maybe those things will never change. They never will as long as good people support criminal behavior. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 04:56:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Garrette
I'm not on the WMD teams, so I can't really speak to those (though I do get some almost-insider type info); I admit the failure to find/produce any such weapons is an embarrassment. A few ways to interpret it, though:
1) They legitimately haven't been found but exist, either hidden in Iraq or spirited away
2) They never existed and the US knew it, using the allegation as a pretense for attack
3) They never existed and the US legitimately believed otherwise due to intelligence sources which are always imperfect; hence, their motives cannot be considered criminal on these grounds.
There's also possibility (2a): that the intelligence community had little or no evidence of WMD (one way or the other), but was under political pressure to inflate the claims to provide a political justification for a war. If this is the case, then some of the players (Colin Powell?) may have legitimately believed there was strong evidence for WMD, while others (the White House and upper echelons of the intelligence agencies?) knew the evidence was shaky at best. |
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2003 : 22:56:34 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, I'll have to disagree based on personal observation that the sanctions were genocidal. If genocide occurred, it was Saddam's doing.
Donnie, I'll grant you the possibility but have to pull my cloak-and-dagger stuff out (I was Military Intelligence for 18 years before joing first the PSYOP community and now Civil Affairs). I've seen the intel first hand over several years. I saw it again as a refresher just before deploying here. It's not conclusive, but it is persuasive. |
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2003 : 03:29:01 [Permalink]
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You'll have to disagree with people that actually ran the program and resigned in protest such as Denis Halliday and Hans Von Sponeck. You'd have to disagree with the evidence that the first Gulf War targeted civilians. You'd have to disagree with Jutta Burghart, former head of the World Food Programme who resigned in protest of the sanctions.
Was there corruption? Yes. Did the government make life hard for those that the U.S. asked to rebel and then not only deserted, but helped the Iraqi government to squash their rebellion? Yes. Is there any doubt that the sanctions themselves caused a breakdown in the economy and the subsequent deaths of at least hundreds of thousands if not millions of people? No. Was the Ba'ath Party brutal? Yes. Did the sanctions help them remain powerful, at least in their own country? Yes. Did the sanctions and the war make them weak militarily? Yes. Is this war a crime against humanity? Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Garrette
Gorgo, I'll have to disagree based on personal observation that the sanctions were genocidal. If genocide occurred, it was Saddam's doing.
Donnie, I'll grant you the possibility but have to pull my cloak-and-dagger stuff out (I was Military Intelligence for 18 years before joing first the PSYOP community and now Civil Affairs). I've seen the intel first hand over several years. I saw it again as a refresher just before deploying here. It's not conclusive, but it is persuasive.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2003 : 20:44:31 [Permalink]
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Well, well. In the face of such definitive proclamations, what good is argument?
"Evidence" that civilians were targeted in the first Gulf War? Pah. You can find 'evidence' of anything. I was on active duty during the first Gulf War and still active in Military Intelligence. Collateral damage was accepted, but civilians were not a target. Evidence ain't proof. Opinions ain't proof.
And, yes, I'm not in the slightest afraid to disagree with Sponeck, et al.
The genocide came from Saddam.
How many resigned because they disagreed with the sanctions?
How many remained because they did not disagree?
Shall we argue from popularity, minority, or fact?
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The US has done many wrong things. Not supporting the Kurds and Shiites after the first Gulf War ranks among the biggies. I thought so even then.
But that wrong thing does not, as you seem to imply, translate into genocidal sanctions. |
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 06:23:13 [Permalink]
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| As far as education goes, look at the level of education before the sanctions if you want to talk about what education was like in Iraq. I'm not defending Saddam, but it's not a reasonable comparison to talk aobut the level of education now after twelve years of war with the U.S. and Great Britain. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 20:16:00 [Permalink]
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It's it fair to compare Education to prior to 1991? Let's do that.
I'll be generous and start with higher education: The University of Technology is excellent, or was until Iraqis looted it on April 10th (at 3:00 pm, according to the man who was President until new elections 9 days ago).
The University of Baghdad was and is still wonderful. Some damage in the administrative building caused by looters, but records are intact, and the library is good.
In general, higher education has always been excellent here, so I won't go on. Damage at universities is mainly restricted to looting and burning by Iraqis, most occurring prior to US control of their areas.
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My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2003 : 20:30:43 [Permalink]
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On the primary, middle, and secondary levels, let's look at pre-1991. Maybe we should start in what used to be called Saddam City but is now called al Thawrah district. Geographically, it's probably about 1/5 of Baghdad.
It's where the Shiites mainly lived and is, in general, a dump since at least 1978, because Saddam neglects it. Schools there are untouched by the US but are crap and have been crap for decades.
Now look at Shula, a very poor suburb of Baghdad (not Shiite, though; just poor). They have a wonderful gymnasium and Olympic size pool with 10 meter diving platform, but their schools have no supplies and struggle for water. Contact Save the Children (UK) if you want details; they have adopted this and one other poor neighborhood for some basic supplies and kid-related items like soccer balls and basketballs. Ask StC when the neglect began.
Then go back to your admission a couple of posts ago that there, of course, is corruption here, but the "genocide" is a result of the sanctions.
Hogwash. Money was coming in to this country during the 90s. The palace example I described was just one. I'll try to find details for you about the "Saddam Grand Mosque" which was probably 80% complete when this war started. The city already had/has a Grand Mosque that is quite large. But the Saddam Grand Mosque dwarfs it and every other structure around. The four minarets show up individually on even small scale military maps. You can see it from miles away. Billions on this thing.
Saddam had money and spent it on glorifying himself. Yet you say the US is responsible for genocide?
If you're so fond of the UN and talking about what is illegal in reference to their decisions, then why not put the blame where it belongs here? Oil for Food spelled out what Iraq could get money for and what it could be spent on. The US/UK did not prevent Iraq from getting the money, but Saddam sure as shit did not spend it on what the UN said he could or what he agreed to. He spent it on statues of himself, and mosaics, and nameplates in textbooks, and Saddam Grand Mosques and multiple palaces.
Oh, yes. Don't forget the one billion dollars (US) in cash Saddam had his son withdraw from the bank of Jordan (I think I'm remembering the correct one) just before the war. And the $780 million in cash that US forces have found lying around. Or the gold bars recently intercepted as someone attempted to smuggle them into Syria.
Iraq had money during the 90s. Saddam stole it. |
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2003 : 03:21:05 [Permalink]
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We've been through all this before, Garrette. Yes, there was corruption, but the sanctions are being talked about as a model for sanctions on other countries because there was so little corruption. There was not enough money to restore the economy, repair the infrastructure and feed the people. The sanctions were murderous, especially the first few years. Madeleine Albright, when asked if the price of the death of a half a million children was worth it replied that in fact she thought the price was worth it. Many years later she said that that isn't what she meant, but not until many years later.
I don't particularly care about the U.N. It's just another excuse for the wealthy to run the world. It was the U.S. that cried about others violating international law (except for Israel, of course which has more resolutions against it than Iraq). If the U.S. is going to attack others and try others for violating international law, then they should make some attempt to act as though they are concerned about morality and international law. Bush and co. are a band of criminals and this latest escalation of the war against the people of Iraq is a crime against humanity. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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