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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2003 : 14:14:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic
Here's an interesting story from the BBC alleging that US troops actually encouraged looting: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3003393.stm
If this is true, while perhaps not a war crime according to Geneva Conventions, it could still be "criminal" in the eyes of many, many people.
@tomic
Down towards the bottom of that link it says that Centcom stated: quote:
Coalition forces have no orders to protect universities. They have orders to protect places of interest such as hospitals, museums and banks.
Museums, huh? Well, they sure didn't exactly follow orders, now did they? And by all means, protect the damn banks instead of the places of higher learning. Who needs higher learning, anyway? This just burns me up!!!  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2003 : 22:33:03 [Permalink]
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Again, just a few minutes.
Cuneiformist: You may question the archeologist all you like, but he is not a full time soldier except when activated. He is a Reservist who is an archeologist full time. I do not know his credentials and am not qualified to critique them, but I daresay neither are you. His name is Wes Sumner, if you'd like to try to find out about him. And to clarify his/our role, it is not to act as adjudicators of the quality of individual items but to assist the Iraqis in reestablishing their system and institutions.
CENTCOM may not have had orders to protect universities, but they are doing so. I've been to them. The orders to protect museums and banks have been in place for each area as they came under our control. The museum that was looted was on the edge of one of those areas.
@tomic: I was not attempting to imply that the presence of Saddam-haters implies the presense of US-lovers. I know the difference. It's a cheap shot from you, too, given that I make that distinction in the same e-mail when I talk about the Shiites (my apologies if I'm remembering wrong about what I wrote; I know I intended it).
And you're wrong. While I admit the possibility that I'm being snookered, it's only a remote possibility. I run across people constantly who come up to us to do nothing but thank us and say they love "AmEHrikee". Of course, many others come up to ask for chocolate or to have their pictures taken. In my own functional area here, the teachers, when I can get them separated from the headmasters (most of whom are Saddam appointees and Baathists, though some are Baathist out of necessity and others out of ideology while most are Baathist because they are thugs and it was profitable and made them powerful) express not only gratitude but sincere joy we are here.
Two days ago I spoke with a Mr. Mustafa who is a community leader near a group of three schools. He had established security for the schools on his own initiative prior to US forces taking control of the area. Now an APC is parked outside the schools during the school day (for the record, they started up in name on May 3rd; they started up in practice with a very gross estimate of 50% attendance on May 6th; we anticipate 90 - 100% attendance by the 13th in most areas except for those neighborhoods in the middle of the hottest fighting).
I asked him how we could begin to transition US forces out of the security role so the Iraqis can assume it in full when we leave. Here is his verbatim reply through the interpreter: "Leave? We do not want you to leave?" Further questioning indicated he did not mean just for security purposes.
@tomic, you asked me why we are here. I have to go now, but will begin to formulate a response. In the meantime, can you please be more specific in how this is "about oil?"
Oh, and cuneiformist, the 352d CA Brigade, which is working national level issues, has a cultural anthropologist on its staff. I've only met him once, though, and can't remember his name.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 06:44:53 [Permalink]
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| I also think Garrette should tell us why we should think he has any special knowledge of U.S. foreign policy beyond what he sees with his own two eyes. Or is he, like Sollylama, foreign policy incarnate? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 13:27:50 [Permalink]
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I still don't have much to offer to this conversation mostly due to the fact that I am not there, and I've lost my faith in the objectivity of the US media. So, there is little chance I can formulatate a reasonned opinion. I am, however, happy to see Garrette posting once again, and look forward to reading his first person opinions.
Wecome back, Garrette, and please feel free to share your observations. I hope that your work in Iraq goes well. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2003 : 22:12:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Garrette
Again, just a few minutes.
Cuneiformist: You may question the archeologist all you like, but he is not a full time soldier except when activated. He is a Reservist who is an archeologist full time. I do not know his credentials and am not qualified to critique them, but I daresay neither are you. His name is Wes Sumner, if you'd like to try to find out about him. And to clarify his/our role, it is not to act as adjudicators of the quality of individual items but to assist the Iraqis in reestablishing their system and institutions.
CENTCOM may not have had orders to protect universities, but they are doing so. I've been to them. The orders to protect museums and banks have been in place for each area as they came under our control. The museum that was looted was on the edge of one of those areas. . .
Oh, and cuneiformist, the 352d CA Brigade, which is working national level issues, has a cultural anthropologist on its staff. I've only met him once, though, and can't remember his name.
Hi Garrette,
I don't recall ever hearing of an individual named Sumner in my own studies. You "daresay" that I don't know what I'm talking about, but you're wrong-- as a graduate student in the field, I sure as hell know about Near Eastern archaeology (one doesn't choose the name 'cuneiformist' for fun, after all). Sumner may have archaeological credentials, but if so they're likely in a field that has little to do with ancient Iraq.
In any event, your notion that your job isn't to "act as adjudicators of the quality of individual items" directly contraditcs your earlier comments. Before, you cited your archaeology expert among others as saying that the looted material was nothing but forgeries and fakes. But now such judgements aren't your job? Which is it??
You also suggest that the museum was looted only because it was out of the military's area of control. But according to the reports I've read, the military did send in a tank for a short time to the museum. Why not keep it there? Why send it in the first place if it weren't under control? Why not in advance try to make such an important place a priority?
Lastly, you mention a cultural anthropoligist. I am well aware that American and European scholars are in the area, and from email list serves I get plenty of news on first hand accounts (funny-- no one mentions Dr. Sumner...) of what is there and what isn't. As of yet, I've not heard that much of the losses were fakes and forgeries. I won't hold my breath for such news in the future. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2003 : 03:25:52 [Permalink]
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From: Boyle, Francis
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 10:19 AM
To: 'sam@accuracy.org'
Subject: Quote
Importance: High
"Contrary to the rhetoric by the Bush Administration of being "liberators" in Iraq, the U.S. government is at all times the "belligerent occupant" of Iraq, bound to obey the 1907 Hague Regulations, the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949, and the customary international laws of belligerent occupation as set forth in part in U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 on The Law of Land Warfare. Even U.N. Security Council Resolution 1472 of 28 March 2003 expressly recognized that the United States is the "Occupying Power" in Iraq, bound by the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Regulations. All U.S. contracts with respect to Iraq must be vetted in accordance with their requirements."
Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign, IL 61820 USA
217-333-7954(voice)
217-244-1478(fax)
fboyle@law.uiuc.edu <mailto:fboyle@law.uiuc.edu>
(personal comments only)
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 16:59:08 -0500
From: "Boyle, Francis" <fboyle@LAW.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Impeaching Bush
Importance: High
U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10, The Law of Land Warfare, binds President Bush in his constitutional capacity as Commander in Chief of U.S. Armed Forces. Paragraphs 498 and 500 of the Manual expressly incorporate the Nuremberg concept of Crimes Against Peace, and apply them to U.S. Government Officials, whether civilian or military, such as President Bush. The 1945 Nuremberg Charter defines Crimes against Peace as: "planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing." The United States government prosecuted and executed Nazi Leaders at Nuremberg for the commission of Crimes against Peace, among other international crimes.I personally oppose the imposition of the death penalty upon any person for any reason. But because he has committed a Nuremberg
Crime against Peace by waging a war of aggression against Iraq in violation of the United Nations Charter and the Kellogg-Briand Peace Pact, President Bush should be impeached, convicted and removed from Office for also committing "high crimes and misdemeanors" in accordance with Article II, Section 4 of the United States Constitution.
Francis A. Boyle, Professor of Law, University of Illinois College of Law in Champaign
Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign, IL 61820 USA
217-333-7954(voice)
217-244-1478(fax)
fboyle@law.uiuc.edu <mailto:fboyle@law.uiuc.edu>
(personal comments only)
Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign, IL 61820 USA
217-333-7954(voice)
217-244-1478(fax)
fboyle@law.uiuc.edu <mailto:fboyle@law.uiuc.edu>
(personal comments only)
Francis A. Boyle
Law Building
504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
Champaign, IL 61820 USA
217-333-7954(voice)
217-244-1478(fax)
fboyle@law.uiuc.edu <mailto:fboyle@law.uiuc.edu>
(personal comments only)
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:28:46 [Permalink]
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After entering an eloquent, brilliant, and irrefutable response a few days ago, I discovered that these terminals time me out after only a couple of minutes. And there's a line, so briefly:
Cuneiform, my "daresay" was in response to what appeared to me being your prejudice against the military and an assumption that soldiers obviously can't be experts in anything but killing. Spoke with Sumner: he laughed and said "Tell him I've been on more digs than most people can count." May I suggest a May 7 CNN story on the recovery of museum items?
Gorgo: I agree with your Law of War extract, but not your implication. I think Bush is playing word games by refusing to accept that we are occupiers; we are. Moreover, I think it would be beneficial if he would simply admit it. But 'belligerent' in this case merely means one side in a war; it is not a derogatory. |
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:37:16 [Permalink]
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[AaCuneiform again: regarding the tank temporarily in front of the museum, I wasn't here at the time and so can only speculate, but that is all you are doing, correct? And will you grant that at least in this subject, I do have the expertise to expound?
The mere fact that a small force is in an area once does not equate to the commander 'being in control.' Forays, raids, demonstrations...these are all part and parcel of maneuver. Two days ago I was speaking with the headmasters of some secondary schools. Outside, we had two HMMWVs with armed soldiers. Now we are not there. Do I control that area? Of course not. (It's an imperfect analogy, because in the bigger picture the 3ID Commander does control the area, but I trust you see the point).
Regarding schools: Yesterday I was at a UN/UNICEF meeting about education in Iraq. UNICEF said (it wasn't in a military setting--I had to wear civvies and go without weapons--and it wasn't military led) that the vast majority of damage to schools predates the war and is the result of neglect. The exceptions are the schools which were actively militarily defended--a war crime.
aagh! Got timed out!]
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My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:46:03 [Permalink]
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Our big concern now is providing basic supplies (pens, pencils, notebooks/copybooks, chalk, and blackboards) to allow schools to give their year-end exams, which are now scheduled starting in June and ending mid-July. UNICEF has the capacity to provide such supplies to all the country. They need $4 million. The US has the money, but UNICEF can't accept money from the military, so I'm scrambling to find an NGO to provide the money. UNICEF doesn't seem to be trying too hard.
Cuneiform, you also said you would have thought that collateral damage was one of the primary concerns of the citizens. I can understand why you'd think that, but you'd be wrong. First, the collateral damage is not so extensive as you probably think. Second, I'm here and talking to the people. The sarcasm fails on this point.
@tomic: Turns out I've found quite a few who actively like the US here in Baghdad. Lots of clerics, community leaders, teachers, small merchants. They want us to be more stern in our approach to security. They appreciate our efforts. They are finally feeling like Saddam may really be gone, and they're opening up. They're also learning that we won't suppress any anti-American thought expressed verbally or in print.
Heady stuff, and quite fun. |
My kids still love me. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2003 : 23:50:00 [Permalink]
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Oh, and Walt? One protects banks, and even oil ministries, so that the economy remains intact. With an intact economy and money flowing in, universities can be rebuilt.
The University of Baghdad is in excellent shape. The University of Technology is structurally sound except for a portion of two of the colleges that were firebombed AFTER the staff returned to work by Iraqis. It was also looted, not by a few criminals, but by a mob of Iraqis on the day US tanks first reached the center of Baghdad but had not established control.
Do you know the story that those in official positions put out? That the US hired Kuwaitis to loot Iraq. They ignore that Kuwait has offered to give, completely free of charge, enough textbooks to replace all those that must be replaced because of their Ba'athis, Saddam slant. |
My kids still love me. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 02:27:35 [Permalink]
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Garrette, if I remember correctly, you said that you were working in the Bagdad area. I realize that it would be difficult to get a feeling about the nation as a whole, but I would be interested in your feelings concerning the progress of 'nation building' there. For instance, do you have a sense of wether elections would go smoothly, or if popular gov't would share power? Is the infrastructure being repaired? Rebuilt? Improved? Are the US contractors/corporations sharing the work with Iraqi business? Are health services improving nicely? Anyway, I think that you get the idea.
I'm just looking for some observations beyond that of the press, the politicians, and the 'experts' thousands of miles away.
Also, if you're being timed out, have you thought about typing your comments into a word processor. Then, cut, go online and paste into the message box. Just trying to help. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 04:54:50 [Permalink]
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| Yes, glad you're able to post Garrette - and everyone else. Garrette, this entire operation is illegal. It's nice that everyone is trying hard to make the best of a bad situation, there is no doubt that everyone is trying. However, this is an illegal attack, as were the sanctions and the almost weekly bombing before this latest escalation of the war. Since it is illegal, everything that happens is the responsibility of the U.S. I don't doubt that the U.S. didn't have the ability to protect the museum, but that's beside the point. They created the anarchy to begin with. So it is their responsibility to make it right. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2003 : 23:30:35 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, as much as I like debating with you (and I truly do) I haven't the time to get into the big picture of the illegality, but you know, of course, that I disagree, yes?
Tim, I'm in Baghdad, yes, but I've been through the southern part, and I go to UN/UNICEF meetings that discuss the nation as a whole, plus some other sources. Briefly, the infrastructure, as far as roads and things go really aren't that bad. Electricity is a nationwide shortage but mostly now in Baghdad whereas it was the reverse before the war. Baghdad used to forcibly import electricity from the northern and southern regions to make up its deficit; we no longer do that, so the south and north are better off while Baghdad has a deficit. In a couple of months, they predict Baghdad will be producing around 1800 MegaWatts (I'm not an EE by any means, just parroting the briefings I attend), which is more than Baghdad has ever produced internally; we need about 2500 Mw.
Socially/politically/organizationally, north and south are better off than Baghdad because they had social ties outside Baathism and Saddam Hussein. The Kurds in the north have established an effective organization, almost a country-in-a-country. The Shiites in the south, while not as far along, have begun the same thing.
More later. Have to go. |
My kids still love me. |
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