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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2003 : 10:44:47
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I wish to take the standpoint that Spiritualism is a fraud and everything that goes on in the Church is faked. From this standpoint I'm trying to fathom out it's raison d'etre.
The premise that it uses as a hookline is that you will receive messages from the dead. It does this by giving out information that only you should know about. I've been to several meetings now - some of the info given out was of avery general nature and some was very specific. The very specific info was not 'fished' for. The medium pointed to a specific person and immediately gave out the specific info.
Obviously the info was obtained by hidden microphones but yet the hall was a hushly quiet before the session took place. Alternatively the people who received this specific info eg. 'you have had cancer of the upper chest region', 'your Mum gassed herself by putting her head into the gas oven' (yes these were some of the examples I actually heard) were obviously stooges.
As it's all a fraud and if you want people to come back week after week, these stooges have got to be different each week, otherwise suspicions will be aroused. This has to happen in every Spiritualist church at every meeting in all of the towns, cities and countries where there is a Spiritualist church and there are thousands of them.
So now they've hooked you because you haven't seen through the fraud. What then? You now believe that the dead can really speak and they've lured you into their congregation. It's from this point on that I'm trying to fathom the raison d'etre. They've used fraud and fakery to trick you into becoming a member of their church. Is it to get money out of or is it to get you to promote their ideology. Their ideology in part is based on the fact that the living survive death (a simplified view I know).
Because Spiritualism is a fake they've used fraudalent methods to get you to believe that life after death is a reality in order for you to join them so that you can continue to promoting thier ideology. So, they're faking the very thing they believe in.
This is my take on Spiritualism from the standpoint that it's all a fraud. Can anybody else give me a plausible reason as to why Spiritualism uses fraudalent methods to lure you into their congregation. Also what other mwthods can they use to get info out of you when they haven't 'fished' for it beforehand.
I would like to know this as I feel that I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes and I just can't see how they do it and for what reason.
Thankyou
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 12:48:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can anybody else give me a plausible reason as to why Spiritualism uses fraudalent methods to lure you into their congregation.
Ah, profit perhaps...
Welcome to the group, NumboJumbo. Is this your first encounter with the world of the paranormal, or are you an experienced skeptic from way back? |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 13:25:58 [Permalink]
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And not ot mention, but I will, authority. Witness the political power held by the Church(s).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 13:35:04 [Permalink]
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I have been interested in the paranormal for approx. 20 years. I look at things from a fraud point of view and see whether I can justify whatever it is I'm looking at from a fraud point of view. Some I can't justify, some I can. Does that make me a skeptic?
Anyway, profit you say. I was charged £3UK to get into the hall. There were approx 40 - 60 people per session I attended. If they wish to make a profit then this money has got to pay for the mortgage, running costs, maintenance and service bills on the building they use. There is also the photocopying of the literature which was freely available as well. If Spiritualists are in it for the profit then they want to make money out of it. At the sessions I attended, there were 4 people who seemed to be running the show plus if there were stooges amongst the audience you're probably talking about 7 people altogether. There are probably other costs but without getting too deep into Spiritualism I'm unaware of them at the moment.
The evening wasn't high on entertianment value nor is it a topic that most people freely talk about. If you're in it for the money then you want to draw the punters in. Spiritualists use the hookline that they will tell you things that only you should know. If you want people to spend money on this business then you've got to be good at telling people information that only they know, otherwise if you tell them something that they can't relate to then they are going to go away disappointed and therefore you loose your potential repeat business. How they get that information is something I haven't figured out yet from the sessions I've attended.
Pick a scenario where they are able to get that information from you and remember from my firts post, these 'mediums' would pick on somebody and give them specific info straight away which the recipient accepted as being correct. Anyway to make a profit you need people in the hall and thats where marketing comes in. I don't really see the PR or marketing dept being particularly good at theur job - there's certainly no full page, half page, one paragragh advert in the newspapers round where I live. In fact the Spiritualists PR job has got an uphill struggle from the word go. People snicker at you or look at you as if you're a brainless monkey if you sya you've been to a Spiritualist Church.
As I have not ventured any further into Spiritualism other than a public demonstartion of mediumship I can't say how much they want off you once you've bitten the bait and joined their congregation - perhaps somebody out there may know that one.
If it is for profit, then on the face of it they seem to have quite a few outgoings for very little profit - if at all. Does anybody know how much it costs to run a spiritualist church and what profit they make on it? To me as a scam, they don't seem to have quite got their act together in order to make a killing out of us gullible public. However the movement's been around for the past 150 years, so they must be making a profit somehow, otherwise they would have gone out of business a long long time ago.
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 13:40:46 [Permalink]
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To Filthy
Would you be able to expand on the political power that the Spiritualist Church has. I've got to admit I didn't think of that one as I was unaware they had any. I think I need to do some research into that one unless you can shortcut it for me and point me in the right direction.
Thanks |
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niamh
New Member
Zimbabwe
8 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 13:56:06 [Permalink]
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| excuse me, but i didn't know there actually is a spiritualist CHURCH..i've seen things like ritual transes and loads of so-called psycics.. but i never dreamed that it all could be put under one [religious] roof.. dunno.. it always seemed as it was just another money-taking practise for superstitious people.. correct me if i'm wrong.. |
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Avenel
Skeptic Friend
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 14:03:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by niamh
excuse me, but i didn't know there actually is a spiritualist CHURCH..i've seen things like ritual transes and loads of so-called psycics.. but i never dreamed that it all could be put under one [religious] roof.. dunno.. it always seemed as it was just another money-taking practise for superstitious people.. correct me if i'm wrong..
Look here, or here, or here, or do an All the Web search for a ton of links.
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"How many angels can swim on the head of a beer?" - Roger Ramjet |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 14:33:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Anyway, profit you say. I was charged £3UK to get into the hall.
Being that this is a church and not something just for entertainment, what you were witnessing was a recruitment drive. If they just get one or two new converts from such an evening of work then they will have made a profit in the long run. These new converts tithe, buy church goods, volunteer their time, and maybe even in the long run become the next "stooges". Plus these new converts help convert others, almost like a pyramid marketing scheme.
At the foundation of any church is recruiting new converts whether they are overt or covert about it. Their main goal was to just get a little interest from a few in the audience, get them asking questions, and asking for more propaganda labeled as "information". This is the same stuff you get at some faith healing events. Some charge money, others don't, because their main goal is to get new followers. The £3 was simply a bonus.
quote:
Pick a scenario where they are able to get that information from you and remember from my firts post, these 'mediums' would pick on somebody and give them specific info straight away which the recipient accepted as being correct
Did they do this for everybody, or were there some they had to ask questions? Were there any misses?
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People snicker at you or look at you as if you're a brainless monkey if you sya you've been to a Spiritualist Church.
Obviously not everyone snickers since some people go to those churches. |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 15:09:10 [Permalink]
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At the first session I went to, there were pobably 20% misses whilst at the second there were probably 10% misses (I was one of them). I think some 'fishing' was done at the first but really not uch whislt at the second no 'fishing' was done or at least that's what it appeared to me to be like. In the first session there was one instance where both the medium and the recipient were talking at the same time and both said the same thing at the same time. That was spooky.
The number of hits far outweighed the misses in both sessions especially the second session probabaly in a 8 to 1 ratio - but I'm only guessing.
You say it's a recruitment drive. They use fraudalent methods to recruit you and once you're in you buy goods from them. IN 150 years there must be people who have been recruited and seen what Spiritualists really are - scam merchants. THey become disenchanted with they've seen and become ex-Spiritualists who then expose the fraudalent ways of the church. I have not been able to find any person like that who was a member and then exposed them for what they are. Can anybody help me on this one?
To set up a church/religion based on recruiting people by fraudalent means seems peculiar. Once you recruit those people you then have to keep it a secret from them. To join a Spiritualist church seems pretty easy to me as they appear to be quite open. What's stopping a newspaper reporter or someone writing a book joining the Spiritualists and then exposing their fraudalent ways. As there are so many Spiritualist Curches around the world and it's been going for 150 years or so, then somebody must have tried joing a Spiritualist chuch with the sole aim of exposing the fakery and forgery they adopt.
Can anybody tell me where I might find such exposes. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 16:21:13 [Permalink]
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Oh, yes, I've been to a spiritualist church. They are very serious. They're also very bad. They have several people that do readings. I think it's part of the Church doctrine to learn how to do this. The first reading I went to, it was funny because just about every reading included some mention of a John, Paul or George. "Someone is talking to me about a George, do you have an uncle or father figure named George?" I kept waiting for them to mention Ringo, but they never did.
They have a restaurant attached to the church, and a Wednesday night service so a lot of people go eat and then get a reading.
It's terrible. They're never right except when talking to people they know.
See the information at randi.org and skepdic.org about cold readings and "hot" readings. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2003 : 18:29:42 [Permalink]
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Where the real money is in the spritualist clap-trap is in private 'readings'. These cost the sucker considerable cash. I think Sylvia Brown gets something like $700 for a session. The ridiculous John Edward gets better than that, or so I've been told. Can't verify it. Getting a look at their books is like pulling teeth from a crocodile.
If indeed, this is a church, recruitment is exactly what they're doing. And soon the converted will relieved of the burden of his wealth.
quote:
Would you be able to expand on the political power that the Spiritualist Church has. I've got to admit I didn't think of that one as I was unaware they had any. I think I need to do some research into that one unless you can shortcut it for me and point me in the right direction.
All you've got to do is pickup a history book. I doubt that you'll find anything on 'Spiritualist' churches, as these are little more than minor cults; indeed, private enterprise. Of course, some cults hit the big time: The Raelians, Scientologists (sp?), Latter Day Saints.......Christians..... Who knows the future of the spiritualist thieves, especally in as gullible a society as ours.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 05:19:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
The number of hits far outweighed the misses in both sessions especially the second session probabaly in a 8 to 1 ratio - but I'm only guessing.
N.J., if you want to know how they may seem to nail so many readings this will take you to a whole bunch of online articles concerning cold readings.
http://www.csicop.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?q=Cold+Reading
CSICOP is very well researched and very trustworthy.
Anyway, I used to give Tarot readings to people just to show them how easy it was. Man, for months I studied everything I could about the cards. I bought books, occult magazines, and paid for people to read for me while throwing all sorts of curve balls to trip them up. I practiced on my friends and family. Then, I started doing readings. Man, I thought that I was good. I had most eating out of my hands. Sometimes, I set up on a box in Jackson Square, down in the New Orleans' French Quarter on an occasional Sunday afternoon. I charged ten bucks a pop.
Well, I would string the folks along until I thought that I had them in my trap. Then, I handed their money back, and explained what a cold reading was, and how I told them nothing more than what they told me, with a few educated guesses thrown in for lagniappe.
At first, the typical response shocked me. Soon, I grew accustomed to it. Finally, I gave up on my project all together.
The vast majority of those that had already made up their minds that fortune telling was valid, continued to believe. Mostly, they insisted that the cards were mysteriously working through me, and that I truly had powerful psychic abilities that I was not recognizing and/or accepting within my own "cynical conciousness." Most others simply wrote it off as entertainment, not really questioning anything other than my motives, and getting a little paranoid about the whole charade being a part of some larger scam.
After nearly a year of training and practice, I was left with little more than an empty feeling. I felt as if a year of my life had been wasted. Even though I was a few dollars wealthier, (many wouldn't take the money back), I felt as if my master plan had backfired. And, indeed it had.
However, I had learned a valuable lesson. First off, people see exactly what they want to see, and second, they see what a good confidence player wants them to see. Usually, the two are the same.
Well, that's my story. I'll leave the 'religious indoctrination for fame and fortune' to others. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 06:46:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NumboJumbo
I wish to take the standpoint that Spiritualism is a fraud and everything that goes on in the Church is faked. From this standpoint I'm trying to fathom out it's raison d'etre.
The premise that it uses as a hookline is that you will receive messages from the dead. It does this by giving out information that only you should know about. I've been to several meetings now - some of the info given out was of avery general nature and some was very specific. The very specific info was not 'fished' for. The medium pointed to a specific person and immediately gave out the specific info.
Obviously the info was obtained by hidden microphones but yet the hall was a hushly quiet before the session took place. Alternatively the people who received this specific info eg. 'you have had cancer of the upper chest region', 'your Mum gassed herself by putting her head into the gas oven' (yes these were some of the examples I actually heard) were obviously stooges.
As it's all a fraud and if you want people to come back week after week, these stooges have got to be different each week, otherwise suspicions will be aroused. This has to happen in every Spiritualist church at every meeting in all of the towns, cities and countries where there is a Spiritualist church and there are thousands of them.
So now they've hooked you because you haven't seen through the fraud. What then? You now believe that the dead can really speak and they've lured you into their congregation. It's from this point on that I'm trying to fathom the raison d'etre. They've used fraud and fakery to trick you into becoming a member of their church. Is it to get money out of or is it to get you to promote their ideology. Their ideology in part is based on the fact that the living survive death (a simplified view I know).
Because Spiritualism is a fake they've used fraudalent methods to get you to believe that life after death is a reality in order for you to join them so that you can continue to promoting thier ideology. So, they're faking the very thing they believe in.
This is my take on Spiritualism from the standpoint that it's all a fraud. Can anybody else give me a plausible reason as to why Spiritualism uses fraudalent methods to lure you into their congregation. Also what other mwthods can they use to get info out of you when they haven't 'fished' for it beforehand.
I would like to know this as I feel that I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes and I just can't see how they do it and for what reason.
Thankyou
Numbo, welcome to the group. You are quite correct to assume that a place that charges admission to talk to the dead is a fraud. Its the classic parting fools from their money scheme. Throw some mysticism into the mix, you have a self-sustaining set of marks providing one with a comfortable income. Or an organized religious administration.
To answer some of your other questions concerning "how did they know that".
There are several little tricks to hook the marks.
1) "Plants" in the audience. These are folks who the individual already knows their alledged history and repeats it in detail.
2) Confederates in the audience. They walk about listening to the audience members and relay that information back to the "medium". Remember, people are here with the predisposition that they are going to talk to a dead relative. They usually talk about it before entering. Part of human nature there.
3) The "mediums" or "trance mediums" will start very generally about they have a "feeling about someone in this area who has a relative starting with the letter S" and then they let the mark talk.
As for an afterlife, that is a subject of speculation and opinion. There is no evidence either way. The atheistic viewpoint is that when we die, there is no afterlife. The theistic viewpoint usually has some form of afterlife. Whether it is rebirth or a place of reward/punishment, there is the opinion that an afterlife waits. Theists have no evidence to prove the existance of an afterlife. It is logically impossible to prove a negative, so atheists don't have proof. The athiests can and do say that based on the lack of evidence for an afterlife that it is highly unlikely that it exists. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 06:52:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
IN 150 years there must be people who have been recruited and seen what Spiritualists really are - scam merchants. THey become disenchanted with they've seen and become ex-Spiritualists who then expose the fraudalent ways of the church.
Let's look at other churches that have been exposed as fraudalent. Scientology and Benny Hinn are great examples. Both have ex-followers that are very vocally critical of their former congregations. Hinn was exposed on TV and even numerous Christain churches write negatively of him. But yet both still have enough followers to draw in the money. Are there ex-spiritualists who are skeptical? I don't know, I am not very familiar with the church, but I would be willing to bet on it.
quote:
To set up a church/religion based on recruiting people by fraudalent means seems peculiar. Once you recruit those people you then have to keep it a secret from them.
ALL churches recruit based on fraudalent means. How is this so peculiar? They will tell you that you will be healed or that you will be rewarded ten fold in this life. When it doens't happen obviously YOU were not faithful enough. Although I have never been to a spiritualist church before I would predict they pull the same stuff.
Here are a few things I found however on the Spiritualist Church
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/popec.html
quote:
Like wise, at the turn of the century, spiritualist churches were
hotbeds of fraud religion. Fake mediums, tricking bereaved people
sucked them dry, draining them remorselessly of money for "the cause".
The fraud mediums had two terms, 'shuteye' and 'openeye'.
And openeye was a medium that knew the big and fancy phenomena
of the spiritualist churches were all frauds. They were the in group,
who usually aided and abetted each other in their frauds, and with these
spectacular frauds, kept the whole show going.
They made the big money.
http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/cherryvalley/0602spiritrevival.htm
quote:
Spiritualism lost momentum in the early 20th century amid charges of fraud and fakery. But some contemporary academics say America's appetite for Spiritualism and psychic phenomena may be growing.
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/SupernatSpiritualism16.htm
The second article gives a detailed history of the spiritualist movement and the numerous exposed frauds. Yet people keep on believing. |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 12:59:30 [Permalink]
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To filthy
It's run from money gained by private readings you say.
Let's look at this. The leaflet I obtained from the Church I went to printed out it's regular meetings that it holds. Monday evenings only were reserved for private readings. Now, you are setting up an organisation to lure people into these private readings. That's where the money is. I don't eactly know how much they charge but if you're running a business you really musn't charge yourself out of the market. THe top mediums at the following site (which I believe is the leading one in this field in the UK) http://www.psychics.co.uk/shop/readings.html charge roughly £50 - £100.
At grassroot Spiritualist level I doubt they charge as much as that - let's say £25 - £30. There were rougly 40 - 60 people in the sessions I attended (and here I assume that's roughly about average - anybody care to correct me). I didn't see that many people pick up the same leaflet that I picked up nor did I hear any mention of the private readings service in any of the sessions I attended. Once again the PR dept are not doing a very good job of promoting thsi money spinning side of Spiritualism.
Now, they've lured into these private readings under false pretences because the info you gave out at the meetings was faked. You're running a business so you want repeat business so you've got to be good at relaying other info about these people at the private readings. You know your PR dept is not that good, so one of the ways to drum up business is by word of mouth. If your good then word of mouth should do the trick. Spiritualism is not held in high regard in the UK as indeed I suspect it isn't in othr places. You really do have an uphill struggle to bring the punters in, in the first place and then once they're in, then to try to get them to come to these money spinning private readings. The money from these private readings has then got to pay for the upkeep of the hall, salary of the people running these meetings, the stooges (unless they're doing it voluntarily) and also the so called mediums that are present at these private readings.
OK, thses people probably have daytime jobs to go to so the money they earn from the takings from these private readings you would trust would be worth their while in continuing this money spinning racket - until they can give up their day job.
I myself just can't imagine that grassroots Spiritualism is going to bring that much money in to pay for all the expenses mentioned above, unless of course these people are doing it voluntarily or for the love of ..... what? |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2003 : 13:32:23 [Permalink]
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To Valiant Dancer
Let's look at your points from the 2 sessions I attended. The sessions took place in a one room small building with seating available for approx 100 - 120 people. People came in, in dribs and drabs, sat down and there was the very occasional small talk which I could not make out. THe noise level was as you would expect if you were in a proper church ie a hushly quiet. Let's go to your points now:
1) Plants - see my postng above on this one and why I believe you must not have the same plants in every week. Remember, you're trying to lure people into your church so that they will attend week in week out.
2)There was a hushly quiet in the room. THe people who came into the hall would then go to a seat of their choosing and they did not linger about. I wasn't observant on this one all the time but for the times when I wasn't looking out for this, that's the impression I got. I was picked out in one of the sessions and certainly no-one came anywhere near me before the medium started the session and I certainly wasn't talking about the info that was relayed to me - you've just got to take my word at this one.
3)I think there were 1 or 2 instance where the 'medium' said she had a name that sounded like - whatever the name was. THere were also rougly 7 - 8 instances of the medium saying something like 'I have a gentleman who was a chimney sweep' or a trawlerman - yes these were the examples I actually heard and these professions aren't exactly your common type of job. Why use uncommon jobs when you can get a higher chance of a response using less obscure occupations. Anyway people claimed them as being people they knew. THere were several instances of information given out that nobody could relate to or if they had been picked would not accept the info given - my wife and I fall into this category.
And then there was the information where the 'medium' picked on certain people and gave out rather specific info without any fishing beforehand, ie the medium would say 'you in the white t-shirt' (pointing to that person) and then would specifically state the next examples without anything else said inbetween eg. mum gassing herself by putting her head in a gas oven, cancer of the upper chest region in which she had won the battle(with no visible signs that she had suffered from cancer - BTW I'm no expert in this but she just looked like a regular lady to me), quoting a phrase 'hatches, matches and dispatches' which is a pretty obscure phrase if you're using fraudalent methods to convey the appearance that you really can talk to the dead etc etc. Every one of these people claimed the info as theirs. THe above info is pretty specific for a lucky guess and there w ere several others that I have not related.
As a side issue I have not gone in to all of the other websites mentioned in the other postings yet. There maybe something in there that may put me out of my misery - that there might be something to it after all. To all skeptics - please help.
Someone please tell me how they do it. |
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