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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2003 : 05:30:36 [Permalink]
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Numbo, no offense intended, but why not attend another of these readings, but this time conceal a small pocket recorder, (unless you have severe legal restrictions). Later, play it back. You may surprise yourself. I've found that many people while being read tend to fixate on one element they want to bring out, or hide. At the same time, they have told the reader things about themselves that they soon forget. Even if they are told they mentioned a particular element, they may still deny it.
Personally, I've found the technique of asking several rapid fire questions in between descriptions of certain aspects of the reading or idle chat to be very effective. The idea is not to let the other person have time to think about their answers. We've all fallen for this, even in everyday life. Haven't you ever been in a conversation with a stranger that you felt comfortable around? Later, while looking back on the conversation, you realize you know absolutely nothing about that person. However, the information you've given about yourself may have been all innnocet and general, but was enough to to make more than a few educated guesses.
Something else to consider is why you went to this show in the first place, and under what conditions.
Do you know anyone one else that was there? Information could have been given about you before your appearance, and in complete innocence.
Just how spefific was the reading in your case? Did the spiritualist hit on anything about you personally that could not have been obtained by any other means? By this, I mean something like perhaps you had a crush on your 7th grade teacher, and never told a soul--Not that you or someone else in the room once had a crush on a teacher. And, be careful here. People have a nasty habit of personalizing things.
Concerning the readings for others; Were they alone? Was this their first visit, or could the spiritualists have been working with information acquired at another time? Did anyone have to sign a register, or present any personal information at any time prior to entering this hall on this night, or any other time? Could shills have been used to gather information before that person ever entered the hall?
Unfortunately, you couldn't possibly know the answer to most of these questions unless you knew what you were looking for before hand. Even then, the technique may be very subtle. Magicians pull off a lot of this stuff at every performance, and even other trained magicians must see the show several times before they spot the dodge. It's all in the presentation.
As far as the for profit motive goes, most cults and the like have not historically relied on the monetary support of the typical follower. Often, the largest part of the support comes from certain 'special' followers that have a lot of easily accessed cash or property. These may include especially vulnerable people, such as a recent widow or widower, or a lonely entrpreneur with nothing at home but a TV set and a cat. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2003 : 06:56:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NumboJumbo
To Valiant Dancer
Let's look at your points from the 2 sessions I attended. The sessions took place in a one room small building with seating available for approx 100 - 120 people. People came in, in dribs and drabs, sat down and there was the very occasional small talk which I could not make out. THe noise level was as you would expect if you were in a proper church ie a hushly quiet. Let's go to your points now:
1) Plants - see my postng above on this one and why I believe you must not have the same plants in every week. Remember, you're trying to lure people into your church so that they will attend week in week out.
2)There was a hushly quiet in the room. THe people who came into the hall would then go to a seat of their choosing and they did not linger about. I wasn't observant on this one all the time but for the times when I wasn't looking out for this, that's the impression I got. I was picked out in one of the sessions and certainly no-one came anywhere near me before the medium started the session and I certainly wasn't talking about the info that was relayed to me - you've just got to take my word at this one.
3)I think there were 1 or 2 instance where the 'medium' said she had a name that sounded like - whatever the name was. THere were also rougly 7 - 8 instances of the medium saying something like 'I have a gentleman who was a chimney sweep' or a trawlerman - yes these were the examples I actually heard and these professions aren't exactly your common type of job. Why use uncommon jobs when you can get a higher chance of a response using less obscure occupations. Anyway people claimed them as being people they knew. THere were several instances of information given out that nobody could relate to or if they had been picked would not accept the info given - my wife and I fall into this category.
And then there was the information where the 'medium' picked on certain people and gave out rather specific info without any fishing beforehand, ie the medium would say 'you in the white t-shirt' (pointing to that person) and then would specifically state the next examples without anything else said inbetween eg. mum gassing herself by putting her head in a gas oven, cancer of the upper chest region in which she had won the battle(with no visible signs that she had suffered from cancer - BTW I'm no expert in this but she just looked like a regular lady to me), quoting a phrase 'hatches, matches and dispatches' which is a pretty obscure phrase if you're using fraudalent methods to convey the appearance that you really can talk to the dead etc etc. Every one of these people claimed the info as theirs. THe above info is pretty specific for a lucky guess and there w ere several others that I have not related.
As a side issue I have not gone in to all of the other websites mentioned in the other postings yet. There maybe something in there that may put me out of my misery - that there might be something to it after all. To all skeptics - please help.
Someone please tell me how they do it.
As for not using the same plants, that is true. But they do have quite a lot of parishioners to draw from. These frauds have quite a bit of contact with their parishoners and would be the basis for the originating odd occupation being mentioned. The parishioner would most likely be unaware of their role in the meeting.
The confederate can either mill about outside the hall before it opens to gather information or travel around town, fixating on likely people who might attend and eavesdrop on folks. As you admit, the hall was hushed conversation, not boisterous. Hidden microphones or electronic eavesdropping devices in strategic locations can pick up a lot. What you would be unable to hear clearly can be picked up with a parabolic microphone clearly from an elevated or close proximity.
With any sort of spiritualism or religion, one starts with a group positively predisposed to belief. Separating the marks from their cash is pretty easy. Pushing private readings sets off warning bells. Some folks would want a private reading after a few of these meetings. Once they have a private reading, then they have that individual hooked. Just let the mark blather on and reinforce it with generic comments getting to more specific after you hear more of the story from them, and you have repeat business. I learned how to do palmistry and tarot. I also listened to myself during readings and found the unconscious use of general to specific leading of the person being read. It was for the reason that I was just starting out that I was not charging for the service. After I examined how I was doing it (I had several favorable responses to my readings), I couldn't honestly continue it. My religion forbade me from doing harm to another. Cheating people out of their money I considered harm.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2003 : 13:03:10 [Permalink]
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I do intend to visit the Spiritualist Church again, but not with a recorder. I have now read up on cold reading techniques and for sure I saw alot of the techniques that cold readers use.
I did not know anybody there and the info given to me and my wife was partially specific ie they used the name John which i did not accept. THey also said I have an anniversary on the 25th April - our wedding anniversary is April 18th. Other info was of a more general nature and nothing really that on an individual basis would prove to me nothing other than incorrect guesses. However the anniversary was a slightly spooky thing but if we hadn't have had an anniversary then maybe we would have looked for another one in the family.
I saw nobody outside the hall milling around and the majority of people came to the hall within 5 minutes of the meeting starting. THey did not ask for any info nor did I nor nobody else that I could see have to fill in cards before the meeting. Nobody that I could see was milling around inside the hall and even so they would have 5 - 10 minutes to gather all the info before the 'medium' came on - IMO that's quite a tall order to relay the correct info about the correct person to the medium. No mention was made of private readings and there were no posters advertising it. THe next meeting I go to and possibly others I will get my wife and I to talk about fictitios family members with fictitious family history. If there are hidden mikes or confederates listening in, then wouldn't it be funny if the medium started to regurgitate the crap. That way for sure I would know it's a con, but surely somebody must have done this at a Spiritualist meeting to try and catch them out.
You go to a Spiritualist meeting and basically you're conned into believing that there is life after death. You get hooked by the whole scenario and before you know it you've joined the church. You rejoice in the fact that you don't mind spreading the word that life after death is a reality but yet unbeknownst to you they actually faked that bit about talking with dead people. THey've got to keep this a secret from you but as it's a religion they also want to spread the word about life after death. At some point you are surely going to have be told the truth, in order to be part of the big scam (in order to be a stooge or a confederate , you've surely got to be told something of the scam) - wouldn't you be a bit pissed off with that. Wouldn't you be disillusioned. Wouldn't you want to expose them. Isn't it a bit foolhardy to set up a religion based on nothing more than cold reading. Cold reading can be exposed so easily if you persist at trying to expose them. Presumably somebody has exposed them, somewhere, sometime but to me that doesn't answer the following observation I shall make.
Given that the mediums are a big con, I still can't quite get my mind around what the Spiritualist believe in. Please visit here http://www.snu.org.uk/spirit.htm to see where I'm coming from. For those of you who can't be bothered to visit the link it's main premise is that Spiritualism is all about that life continues after death. THe main purpose of a religion is to spread it's beliefs and for Spiritualists, that's life after death and coomunication with dead people is a reality.
However they are faking the very thing they believe in. What's the point to it all if that's what they are doing? What a complete and utter waste of time to fake the very thing you believe in. There must be something deeper to the Spiritualists Movement than meets the public eye if this is the case. Is it just to be mischievous. Is it to have a laugh at the expense of other 'non-believers'. Is it just something to pass the time away. Is it ... is it what? I'm buggered if I can see it.
So somebody please tell me why they fake the very thing they believe in. It just doesn't make sense, and that's the clever bit about it - you're not supposed to make sense of it, because there's an alterior motive to it. Anybody know what that motive is.
Thankyou. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 04:31:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
So somebody please tell me why they fake the very thing they believe in. It just doesn't make sense, and that's the clever bit about it - you're not supposed to make sense of it, because there's an alterior motive to it. Anybody know what that motive is.
Unfortunately, many of the spiritualists doing the readings may not be faking anything. They may be very sincere. I've never been involved with speaking to the dead, but I have mat my share of cold readers that use all the tools of the trade, and are still convinced of their own paranormal abilities. It certainly isn't rational, but that's not a prerequisite for membership in the human race.
Their motives may range from true belief, to simple greed, to a desire for power. I'm quite sure many have many different motivations. Without Wonder Woman's magic lasso, we can only guess.
Also, we can discuss each and every detail of your visit to this church, but we weren't there. All we can do is try to show you a path alternative to that offered by the spiritualists.
Finally, I would be interested in learning about your next encounter. |
"We got an issue in America. Too many good docs are gettin' out of business. Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their -- their love with women all across this country." Dubya in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, 9/6/2004
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 11:56:45 [Permalink]
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I don't know when I will go back to a Spiritualist Church but when I do I think it will be to attend their Divine Service as they call it - ie a more overtly religious meeting with a splash of clairvoyance thrown in for good measure. As they are known as a religion this I assume is the meeting that they want you to attend after hoodwinking you over their claims of talking with the dead. I want to see how much they charge (if at all), what they advertise (ie private readings), and what faces are there (ie will I recognise any of them as stooges).
However something else I find odd with the mediums in a Spritualist Church is that they must be registered with some authorising body and they must have undergone a training course for several years in order to be able to be a practising medium. They have got to pay for this themselves I believe and as far as I know they have to continue to pay annual registeration fee in order to continue as a medium. Aside from the Church making money out of this (and if you check out their Union they are registered with the UK government as a not for profit charity or something like that) then these people posing as mediums have actually paid money to go in front of an audience ... to claim that they hear voices. Where I come from that's a sign of madness or schizophrenia and they've willingly paid to be potentially labelled as such. There's nowt so queer as folk I say. Anyway it raises questions in me that I find difficult to answer when put into the context that Spiritualism and mediums are a fraud.
Once again to set up a religion based on people who hear voices, who have to pay for that priviledge seems rather odd. Why not just write a book and claim it was witten 2000 years ago and when people ask for miracles say that there's no need to perform them as they've already been done and yes you can read about them. Spiritualists put their money where their mouth is and claim to perform miracles (ie speaking to the dead) in front of your eyes every week in hundreds of different towns in many countries. That's quite a tall order if all you're simply doing is setting up a religion.
Write a book I say - it's much easier to hoodwink people. |
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jmcginn
Skeptic Friend
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 12:28:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
However something else I find odd with the mediums in a Spritualist Church is that they must be registered with some authorising body and they must have undergone a training course for several years in order to be able to be a practising medium. They have got to pay for this themselves I believe and as far as I know they have to continue to pay annual registeration fee in order to continue as a medium.
I bet the money they charge is not a drop in the bucket compared to what scientologists fleece from its flock. People will pay for all sorts of non-sense and will even convince themselves they are really doing the "miracle" of the moment.
A perfect example: I used to teach kung-fu, I practiced for over ten years and then started teaching for another 5 or so. As you know Chinese kung-fu can be a little heavy on the mysticism side and my school was, advocating all kinds of "amazing feats" with the power of chi. Things such as putting out candles from a distance, resisting terrible blows even to the throat, breaking objects without touching them, or breaking only the middle brick in a stack of 10. The list goes one. For the first 8 or so years I was very skeptical and doubted all claims of such powers. However as I got closer and closer to possibly being a teacher and pressure started to mount, I started to bend to my natural desire to be skeptical and eventually I bought in, full hook, line, and sinker. Now I can shamefully say that I advocated for over 5 years to my students something I now know was a sham.
quote:
Why not just write a book and claim it was witten 2000 years ago and when people ask for miracles say that there's no need to perform them as they've already been done and yes you can read about them.
You must have missed my previous post, nor have you ever been to any of the holy roller churches such as Pentacostal. There they do all sorts of "miracles" from slaying you in the spirit to faith healing to speaking in tongues to guaranteeing that if you tithe so much you will get so much in return as a reward from God. Not only do these folks offer to perform "miracles" but they offer to do things that are directly of benefit to you, the believer (as opposed to telling you something you already know or that a dead loved one loves you).
I went to a Pentacostal church for about 2 months as a research project and at the end of each service people were healed, slayed in the spirit, etc. That's "miracles" performed at the end of each service at the end of every week.
Its an amzaing show full of all kinds of tricks. Of course no one is really "healed", they just think they are, or worse yet, they think they were healed but now it came back because they were not faithful enough. Being slayed in the spirit involves falling down and rolling around on the floor, mabye laughing or crying. Miracle? No. Fun to watch. You bet. Speaking in tongues involves the preacher mumbling with words that sound something like a blend between Spanish and Swahili. Divine inspiration? No. Fun to watch? You bet.
Spiritualists on the other hand perform as mediums telling people what they want to hear and performing the typical cold reading tricks possibly mixed in with some stooges as well. Miracles? No. Fun to Watch? You bet. |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2003 : 15:07:00 [Permalink]
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Is this thread fun to read? You bet!  
It's informative as well. By using the principles of flock fleecing you guys have enumerated, I now feel confident that I can develope my own church to shear the sheep. Thanks!  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
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walt fristoe
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 16:51:12 [Permalink]
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I just ran across an article over at Religion News Blog that I thought y'all might enjoy, titled Scottish academics find proof of mediums' ability to use extrasensory perception, but I can't seem to get the link to work.  |
"If God chose George Bus of all the people in the world, how good could God be?"
Bill Maher |
| Edited by - walt fristoe on 04/27/2003 16:57:29 |
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Donnie B.
Skeptic Friend
417 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2003 : 17:43:21 [Permalink]
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They knew you would try to use that link!  |
-- Donnie B.
Brian: "No, no! You have to think for yourselves!" Crowd: "Yes! We have to think for ourselves!" |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 11:06:44 [Permalink]
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I've got to admit that all of your comments have been quite cathartic for me, so I wonder what your reaction is to this website http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/other/church.htm which implies that the Church of England has investigated mediumship/Spiritualism and came down in favour of them. In fact the investigative report was suppressed until it was leaked 9 years later.
How much credence should I attach to an investigation like this. Although I have not thouroughly looked into this aspect, I suspect that there are as many investigations which support Spiritualism as there are that don't. Very frustrating indeed!
Although this is a bit off topic, I am also reading into near death experiences and trying to get both sides of the story. It does seem to me from what I've read (and I've read quite a bit on it) that this phenomenon should not be dismissed out of hand. The debunkers always have an answer but never quite a convincing argument that satisfies all of the various components of a NDE. Wheras if you apply the argument that life after death exists then quite a few (possible alot of)things sit quite comfortably within the framework of an NDE.
The point here is that if there is life after death which NDEs, EVPs (possibly) etc. seem to provacatively indicate then why can't it apply to Spiritualism. Could it be that they are not in it for the money (unlikely), power (unlikely) or pure mischievous (what's the point). I have yet to be convinced about the reason why Spiritualists should fake the very thing they believe in. At the moment I just can't see the purpose or the point behind it.
Thankyou |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 13:29:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by NumboJumbo
I've got to admit that all of your comments have been quite cathartic for me, so I wonder what your reaction is to this website http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/other/church.htm which implies that the Church of England has investigated mediumship/Spiritualism and came down in favour of them. In fact the investigative report was suppressed until it was leaked 9 years later.
How much credence should I attach to an investigation like this. Although I have not thouroughly looked into this aspect, I suspect that there are as many investigations which support Spiritualism as there are that don't. Very frustrating indeed!
Although this is a bit off topic, I am also reading into near death experiences and trying to get both sides of the story. It does seem to me from what I've read (and I've read quite a bit on it) that this phenomenon should not be dismissed out of hand. The debunkers always have an answer but never quite a convincing argument that satisfies all of the various components of a NDE. Wheras if you apply the argument that life after death exists then quite a few (possible alot of)things sit quite comfortably within the framework of an NDE.
The point here is that if there is life after death which NDEs, EVPs (possibly) etc. seem to provacatively indicate then why can't it apply to Spiritualism. Could it be that they are not in it for the money (unlikely), power (unlikely) or pure mischievous (what's the point). I have yet to be convinced about the reason why Spiritualists should fake the very thing they believe in. At the moment I just can't see the purpose or the point behind it.
Thankyou
The C of E as a source of unbiased scientific research? 
Anytime that a religion gets into the science business, crap science is sure to follow.
It seems that their investigation revealed that they considered their own theological constructs against Spiritualism's theological constructs and found a correlation that they didn't want out. Both sides assume the existance of an after life. This is inherently unprovable. NDE's and EVP's have been discussed here at length and the consensus is that there is more than one explaination for the phenomenon. Some of them centering around the state of the body and oxygen flow to the brain during these events. It makes the evidence tenative at best, not provocative.
While I believe in a life after death, I do not believe that it is provable. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 14:10:07 [Permalink]
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V Dancer's dead (snicker) right. Very little good science is done by any church.
I say, 'very little' instead of, 'none' because I remember reading about a serious-to-the-point-of-anal-retention monk in S. America who spent much of his life classifing species of ants. If I remember right, this guy was working around the turn of the last century, and at the time I read about him, it was in the late '50s. At that time, his work was accepted by the scienfific community. Wish I could come up with a reference for it. It was very interesting and I've forgotten much of the story. I almost think I read it in National Geographic, but can't be sure.
As for life after death, well, we'll never know until someone comes back to tell us about it, hopefully before we find out first-hand. I myself, find it highly unlikely.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2003 : 16:41:14 [Permalink]
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NumboJumbo wrote:quote:
Although this is a bit off topic, I am also reading into near death experiences and trying to get both sides of the story. It does seem to me from what I've read (and I've read quite a bit on it) that this phenomenon should not be dismissed out of hand. The debunkers always have an answer but never quite a convincing argument that satisfies all of the various components of a NDE.
Well, the real issue, it seems to me, is that there doesn't appear to be much in the way of evidence which can only be explained by the idea that NDEs mean that some sort of 'soul' survives death, or that NDEs mean that the mind is separable from the body. Until the people who propose that NDEs mean such things actually cough up good evidence, then the mundane non-paranormal explanations of NDEs - for which evidence does exist - are more likely to be true. Same goes for the spiritualist churches. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 08:55:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
V Dancer's dead (snicker) right. Very little good science is done by any church.
I say, 'very little' instead of, 'none' because I remember reading about a serious-to-the-point-of-anal-retention monk in S. America who spent much of his life classifing species of ants. If I remember right, this guy was working around the turn of the last century, and at the time I read about him, it was in the late '50s. At that time, his work was accepted by the scienfific community. Wish I could come up with a reference for it. It was very interesting and I've forgotten much of the story. I almost think I read it in National Geographic, but can't be sure.
As for life after death, well, we'll never know until someone comes back to tell us about it, hopefully before we find out first-hand. I myself, find it highly unlikely.
I would remind my right learned friend that it was an individual who classified the ants as part of his "calling" and not at the behest of the church. I believe my right learned friend is referring to Rev. Thomas Borgmeier (1892 - 1975), a Franciscian monk, who did his work in Rio De Janeiro. His work includes scientific observations of classes of ants and flies from at least 1920. By 1940, he was a well respected entimologist (per the Smithonian Institutue who lists him as an entimologist in their 1940-1949 field studies). He chose not to mix science and religion which proves that good science is possible from religious people.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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NumboJumbo
New Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2003 : 10:45:25 [Permalink]
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I have come to a line of reasoning where the Spiritualist movement was set up to exert an influence on its members. I say this, cos if it's all a fake then for me it seems a possible reason for setting up a religion (I know that's one of the main reasons why other religions are 'born')- money or michievousness just don't sit easily within the framework of Spiritualism. However to base your religion on fakery and forgery (which I feel can be detected more readily than arguing whether the Bible or Koran or whatever, is for real) still seems a precarious and precipitous route to take, if you want your 'believers' to believe in the very thing your faking. However as in jmcginn's post about his kung fu experience, it can happen.
My next question, if you really want this thread to continue, is:
What would convince you lot that there is life after death? Ok, we're getting a bit off topic now, but it's interesting from my point of view to see how your views have shaped the replies you have provided in this posting.
Thanks alot. |
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